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post #21 of 73 (permalink) Old 01-21-2020, 09:44 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by dantoddd View Post
How well does the 2060 OC? if it OCs decently then realistically speaking no one will buy a 5600 over the 2060.
5600 is pitted against the 1660Ti. The 2060 against the 5700. Unless one needs RT, 5700 all the way.

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post #22 of 73 (permalink) Old 01-21-2020, 10:05 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by matthew87 View Post
How have you concluded it's 40% more power?

Sapphire 5600 XT OG bios = 150w board limit
Sapphire 5600 XT New bios = 160w board limit

Around a 7.5% increase in power.... for a 10-11% increase in performance. Performance seems to be scaling well to power.

Where's this 40%?



Bigger chip and larger memory bus =

lower yields
increased GPU chip costs
increased GDDR6 costs
increased board costs for AIBs due to more memory modules and more complex PCBs being required


The rest of your post is equally as illogical.
Right...read some reviews first, ok it's 30% but this isn't the first one to be overvolted and overclocked by amd to squeeze 5-10% performance

Looking at the power charts, we compared the Sapphire 5600 XT Pulse OC with its reference configuration as well as the OC bios. We saw significant differences between them. Where the reference card peaked at 121W, averaging around 110W, with the new BIOS it peaked at 156W while averaging 140W. (Tomshardware)

As for the second part, everything you said adds up to 20-30$ higher COST for 2 gddr6 chips and 10% bigger die so my proposed 100$ higher selling PRICE can cover it

Last edited by Marios145; 01-21-2020 at 10:21 PM.
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post #23 of 73 (permalink) Old 01-21-2020, 10:39 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Marios145 View Post
Right...read some reviews first, ok it's 30% but this isn't the first one to be overvolted and overclocked by amd to squeeze 5-10% performance

Looking at the power charts, we compared the Sapphire 5600 XT Pulse OC with its reference configuration as well as the OC bios. We saw significant differences between them. Where the reference card peaked at 121W, averaging around 110W, with the new BIOS it peaked at 156W while averaging 140W. (Tomshardware)

As for the second part, everything you said adds up to 20-30$ higher COST for 2 gddr6 chips and 10% bigger die so my proposed 100$ higher selling PRICE can cover it
30w means jack all.....This candy is 20c or 21 c....who cares? They have adjusted coolers...aka using 5700 coolers....done deal...non issue.
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post #24 of 73 (permalink) Old 01-21-2020, 11:49 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Marios145 View Post
Right...read some reviews first, ok it's 30% but this isn't the first one to be overvolted and overclocked by amd to squeeze 5-10% performance
Gamers Nexus had around a 10-15w watt delta between stock and new BIOS in their testing for example.

Ultimately it's all about bang for buck, most consumers would gladly take a slight increase in power - as even at 160ish watts this is hardly a high power draw card - for the extra performance gain. It's not like this is AMD 290 Hawaii days where we're talking absolutely monumental power consumption vs the GForce 970 and 980 cards. The 5600 xt still compare well to the 1660ti and 2600 in power consumption and performance.

Quote:
Looking at the power charts, we compared the Sapphire 5600 XT Pulse OC with its reference configuration as well as the OC bios. We saw significant differences between them. Where the reference card peaked at 121W, averaging around 110W, with the new BIOS it peaked at 156W while averaging 140W. (Tomshardware)
Most reviewers don't even provide a break down of power consumption for the card individually.

And some contradict one another here, some are saying exactly what you've said while others are commenting on its power efficiency and running at sub 1v under load even with new OC bios.

And from what i've observed its only the Sapphire card we have to look at

Quote:
As for the second part, everything you said adds up to 20-30$ higher COST for 2 gddr6 chips and 10% bigger die so my proposed 100$ higher selling PRICE can cover it
So you know 7nm yields, chip costs, cost of additional vrm, larger bus memory controllers, cost of additional PCB lanes and layers, GDDR5 chips all at a manufacturing and OEM level?

Last edited by matthew87; 01-22-2020 at 12:12 AM.
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post #25 of 73 (permalink) Old 01-22-2020, 12:25 AM
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Two sources confirming a 30W increase
https://tpucdn.com/review/sapphire-r...ng-average.png

Regarding costs you're not wrong since you have obviously done half the research based on internet opinions, so you're obviously half right.

But answer me this, if 2 extra chips of GDDR6 and 10% bigger die(20mm²) cost more than 20-30$, how can the 5500xt be sold for 170$ and the 5600xt for 280$?
Is one overpriced? is one sold for zero profit?

The answer is simple, total cost has always been 70-100 for a mid range graphics card including everything, profit margins have always been 30-60%.
The real cost has always been in R&D and process masks, not the physical boards.

Last edited by Marios145; 01-22-2020 at 12:44 AM.
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post #26 of 73 (permalink) Old 01-22-2020, 12:44 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Marios145 View Post
Two sources confirming a 30W increase
https://tpucdn.com/review/sapphire-r...ng-average.png

Regarding costs you're not wrong since you have obviously done half the research based on internet opinions, so you're obviously half right.
Rather i'm not so arrogant as to assume i know

As noted by other reviewers and owners of Navi cards power consumption can differ wildly on a per game basis.

As per Anandtech:

Quote:
No wonder AMD is talking up the power efficiency of the card; even with its restricted clockspeeds, not going above 1.0v helps to ensure that power efficiency doesn’t take a dive by paying a massive power penalty to access the last few MHz worth of headroom.

Shifting over to clockspeeds, things look very good for the RX 5600 XT. The card’s clockspeeds are remarkably consistent, and this comes down to the fact that the card is rarely ever entirely power-bound. Rather, the card is running out of room on the voltage-frequency curve, making it very easy to get close to its peak clockspeeds in the process. This goes hand-in-hand with the relatively low voltage, allowing the card to run rather efficiently and avoid heavier power throttling.

I will also quickly note that the delta in power consumption between FurMark and Tomb Raider is higher for the RX 5600 XT than we’ve seen it in other Navi cards. All told, even at 1440p with the highest available settings, Tomb Raider is having a hard time keeping the RX 5600 XT busy enough that the card is running at maximum clockspeeds. This has made Tomb Raider turn into something of a best case scenario, as the card gets to idle a little bit.
There are some games were the cards will pull well under their limit and idle or cruise for periods, and other games where they will see 20% or higher power consumption.

AMD clearly have some driver optimization issues with complaints such as DX9 games resulting in the GPU core locking to 100mhz. I'd say this has more to do with such wild deltas than the actual cards themselves.

End of the day it was 150 and now 160w. The fact AMD could release a new BIOS and AIBS retrospectively added support to their cards suggests TBP didn't change that much. If the 5600 XT really jumped in TDP by 30% in typical gaming loads i doubt AIBs would all be willing to offer this new BIOS, as a few no doubt would have barely strung capable coolers together and VRMs on their cards yet alone ones that could handle an additional 30% or more power and heat being pumped through them. The fact universally all AIBs have said the new AMD BIOS is coming to their cards suggest that the power consumption and thus cooling requirement differences were marginal.
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post #27 of 73 (permalink) Old 01-22-2020, 12:53 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by matthew87 View Post
Rather i'm not so arrogant as to assume i know

As noted by other reviewers and owners of Navi cards power consumption can differ wildly on a per game basis.

As per Anandtech:



There are some games were the cards will pull well under their limit and idle or cruise for periods, and other games where they will see 20% or higher power consumption.

AMD clearly have some driver optimization issues with complaints such as DX9 games resulting in the GPU core locking to 100mhz. I'd say this has more to do with such wild deltas than the actual cards themselves.

End of the day it was 150 and now 160w. The fact AMD could release a new BIOS and AIBS retrospectively added support to their cards suggests TBP didn't change that much. If the 5600 XT really jumped in TDP by 30% in typical gaming loads i doubt AIBs would all be willing to offer this new BIOS, as a few no doubt would have barely strung capable coolers together and VRMs on their cards yet alone ones that could handle an additional 30% or more power and heat being pumped through them. The fact universally all AIBs have said the new AMD BIOS is coming to their cards suggest that the power consumption and thus cooling requirement differences were marginal.
It's not about the power consumption being too much, it's about once again AMD trying to beat nvidia by 1-2-5-10%, by sacrificing their main strength, instead of focusing on the huge advantage that 7nm offers like 2-3x higher density and half power.
The last time that they obliterated nvidia was when they went with the "small die" strategy, obviously gcn/rdna can't produce small dies.

Regarding board costs, im not assuming i know...these have been released in the past.



First image is 2009
Second image is 2011

Some people like me, follow the whole industry for many years and we have seen this stuff discussed again and again and again in many forums before computers became mainstream and there's people like you that have began following more recently, so now you know too.

Names might change, specs might change but the underlying tech is the same.

Last edited by Marios145; 01-22-2020 at 01:06 AM.
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post #28 of 73 (permalink) Old 01-22-2020, 01:46 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Marios145 View Post
It's not about the power consumption being too much, it's about once again AMD trying to beat nvidia by 1-2-5-10%, by sacrificing their main strength, instead of focusing on the huge advantage that 7nm offers like 2-3x higher density and half power.
The last time that they obliterated nvidia was when they went with the "small die" strategy, obviously gcn/rdna can't produce small dies.
The die is considerably smaller than Nvidia counter parts...

Quote:
Regarding board costs, im not assuming i know...these have been released in the past.



First image is 2009
Second image is 2011
LOL, just LOL.

Yes because prices on 55nm silicon from a decade ago and what GDDR3 are SOOOOO relevant to today's world...

ATi, Global Foundaries, an era that predates even FinFet yet alone UEV

Quote:
Some people like me, follow the whole industry for many years and we have seen this stuff discussed again and again and again in many forums before computers became mainstream and there's people like you that have began following more recently, so now you know too.
And how exactly did you deduce i'm new?

When did i start please do tell me?

You must have made a killing exercising your 'knowledge' of the industry when you snapped up those AMD and Nvidia shares years ago. Tell me how many did you buy with all your long term and deep insight?

Last edited by matthew87; 01-22-2020 at 01:51 AM.
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post #29 of 73 (permalink) Old 01-22-2020, 02:07 AM
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AMD basically gave free performance boost and still people complain (facepalm)

AMD 5600xt is targeting 1660ti but when NVIDIA drops 2060 price (really?) now 5600xt matches 2060. How is that a bad move by AMD. Yes early cards might be on older bios but at least there is an option to gain more performance "legally".

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post #30 of 73 (permalink) Old 01-22-2020, 02:09 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by matthew87 View Post
The die is considerably smaller than Nvidia counter parts...



LOL, just LOL.

Yes because prices on 55nm silicon from a decade ago and what GDDR3 are SOOOOO relevant to today's world...

ATi, Global Foundaries, an era that predates even FinFet yet alone UEV



And how exactly did you deduce i'm new?

When did i start please do tell me?

You must have made a killing exercising your 'knowledge' of the industry when you snapped up those AMD and Nvidia shares years ago. Tell me how many did you buy with all your long term and deep insight?
You are making it obvious to me that you cannot see the pattern, you do not understand that the industry works this way for 30 years.
You are totally right about everything, have fun.
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