[VB] Optane persistent memory: Is the end of conventional client storage almost here? - Page 3 - Overclock.net - An Overclocking Community
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[VB] Optane persistent memory: Is the end of conventional client storage almost here?

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post #21 of 42 (permalink) Old 02-22-2020, 06:48 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by epic1337 View Post
possible in software even with today's available hardware, you'd have to check if they're interested in making one though.
ZFS for instance supports data caching through their ARC/L2ARC features.
But that sounds like something you would want on a NAS not a PC. Is the amount of system memory it uses as a primary cache configurable?

Even windows vista thru 10 can do up to 256 MiB of primitive HDD to SSD cluster caching thru Readyboost.

Is optane useful for consumer OS's? Can optane even work with non-server motherboards? It sounds like no is the current answer.
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post #22 of 42 (permalink) Old 02-22-2020, 06:55 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by 8051 View Post
Could you use optane as a dedicated super fast storage cache (a la' Intel's Rapid Storage Technology's Smart Response Technology)?
I think the real change from Optane will happen when the OS understands it as a new type of memory. Instead of simply being accessed as a fast hard drive the OS needs to treat it as RAM, but understand that it is slower non-volatile RAM. For example, it could display images or video directly from the Optane memory but not use it for the most commonly accessed memory locations or running programs, a new memory level for assets not code. If we simply want something fast to cache a file system a nice NVMe NAND drive is already really good, optane does not help for that use case in most situations. The real benefits come when not treating it as a block based storage, it is a new media type. Even NAND makes more sense accessed block based, especially for writes, but Optane (3D Xpoint) is electrically/architecturally very different than any other non-volatile memory technology we have used so far; it can be accessed bitwise exactly like traditional RAM.

We still need a build of Windows 10 Pro for Workstations that supports Optane modules in this way to test to see how good a new memory layer added to the classic von Neumann architecture would actually be, along with at least somewhat affordable hardware. I had hoped we would have seen something by now.

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post #23 of 42 (permalink) Old 02-23-2020, 02:59 AM
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What happens to the memory bus speed or timings when you mix optane and regular DIMM's on the same motherboard? Does it preclude overclocking the regular DIMM's? Will the presumably slower timings of optane memory end up slowing down all regular DIMM's installed on the same motherboard?
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post #24 of 42 (permalink) Old 02-23-2020, 03:32 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by 8051 View Post
But that sounds like something you would want on a NAS not a PC. Is the amount of system memory it uses as a primary cache configurable?

Even windows vista thru 10 can do up to 256 MiB of primitive HDD to SSD cluster caching thru Readyboost.

Is optane useful for consumer OS's? Can optane even work with non-server motherboards? It sounds like no is the current answer.
depends on your goal, workloads that demands every scrap of speed you can throw at it can benefit from caching. no idea, i haven't used ZFS as it isn't supported by Windows.

by logic of "realworld workloads", anything faster than your typical SATA SSD isn't really that useful for consumers, even if we disregard the price difference.
to point out, the application load speed difference between the fastest NVMe SSD to an average SATA SSD is only within a few seconds.
where as file transfers is entirely limited by the slowest point on the chain.
e.g. HDD-SSD is bottlenecked by HDD, Internet-SSD is bottlenecked by internet, even gigabit internet is only 128MB/s at best.

this is why i had pointed out before that we're already far beyond practical sequential speeds, its entirely e-peen at this point.
what we actually need is speeding up IO and lowering access latency, specially at the smallest IO requests like random 4K and such.
this *will* speed up applications more than increasing sequential speed by 10times, so yes Optane being used as RAM is what we should be aiming for.

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Last edited by epic1337; 02-23-2020 at 05:42 AM.
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post #25 of 42 (permalink) Old 02-23-2020, 09:41 AM
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If I am fully understanding Optane memory right (doubtful), I can't help but wonder if Intel will be putting out a GPU with a ton of optane loaded onto the GPU itself as a competitor to the likes of AMD's Pro SSG GPU's.


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post #26 of 42 (permalink) Old 02-23-2020, 10:22 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by DNMock View Post
Does Optane really have any value for non-content creation and are the benefits only seen in content creation if all the assets are saved onto the optane memory? Like say you are creating a render on blender, windows and blender are installed onto the optane drive, but all the texture assets are saved onto an SSD?
I would say more the other way around, use this as any other, as yet another storage layer. Can't afford a huge RAMdisk to store your large assets, get Optane, can't afford Optane, get SSD NVMe Gen4, 3, SATA, HDD etc. it goes.
More for use cases where fast SSD is still not fast enough and one/company has $$$ to burn.

GPUs... they will make what ever they can sell in mass to corporations. Not sure some holywood production like hardware is their focus with GPUs really.
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post #27 of 42 (permalink) Old 02-23-2020, 01:25 PM
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Memory =/= storage. Data follows a different path and has different things done to it. You normally don't format your ram to your liking and your data in ram normally doesn't run through your cpu cores to get to your memory controller to get to your ram to get to your memory controller to get to your cpu. Skip some of those step and there are benefits, like with that Pro SSG gpu. Only optane is faster and more compatible with being handled like ram.

Optane can be storage, so can ram. Optane can also go one step up the memory chain and be treated as ram. Not as good as getting a really fast, tiny stick of ram that you could delid your cpu, then plug in to the pcb to be handled as 1GB L3 cache, but the analogy is appropriate.

Optane as nvm>ram pretending to be nv storage.

It would be nice if DDR5 controllers were nvm aware and could run both concurrently.

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post #28 of 42 (permalink) Old 02-23-2020, 05:31 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by 8051 View Post
What happens to the memory bus speed or timings when you mix optane and regular DIMM's on the same motherboard? Does it preclude overclocking the regular DIMM's? Will the presumably slower timings of optane memory end up slowing down all regular DIMM's installed on the same motherboard?
I assume it uses separate memory channels and the UEFI allows independent timings, even with all DDR4 I can run different channels with different timings. If the OS understands they are different speeds there is no need to have the timings match, the issue with normal systems is that the OS treats all memory locations as the same (disregarding NUMA architectures). On that note, NUMA is a good basis for the OS understanding slower memory locations, however this would need to be a new version of that concept.

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post #29 of 42 (permalink) Old 02-23-2020, 05:44 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by rluker5 View Post
It would be nice if DDR5 controllers were nvm aware and could run both concurrently.
this would make a revolution.

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post #30 of 42 (permalink) Old 02-23-2020, 06:04 PM
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