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post #21 of 39 (permalink) Old 04-06-2020, 12:29 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by XMG Support View Post
Hi Veii, great to be here!





I don't know. But I forwarded yours and MrKoala's post verbatim to our rep at the ODM including source and some comments of my own.





Current pre-order statistics:
  • 30% 3600
  • 40% 3700X
  • 30% 3900
No pre-order on 3950X yet, but the sample size is still too small.
Should we include 3900X in the BTO configurator? We haven't tested it yet. I hope it won't run hotter than 3950X.








You guys are gonna buy one? Feel free to send me a PM.


BR,
Tom
I would buy one but i only go for 17-18inch versions and my current model still holds it's own sadly

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post #22 of 39 (permalink) Old 04-06-2020, 01:51 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by XMG Support View Post
Current pre-order statistics:
  • 30% 3600
  • 40% 3700X
  • 30% 3900

No pre-order on 3950X yet, but the sample size is still too small.
Should we include 3900X in the BTO configurator? We haven't tested it yet. I hope it won't run hotter than 3950X.
You guys are gonna buy one? Feel free to send me a PM.

BR,
Tom
Hmm i wonder why the 3950X pushes 3ghz only on sustained load on your side while still hitting near 82c
Even tho it's not AVX accelerated
Makes me think about a pure 3900X
Usually both ryzen 9's would be a well considerable option, and finetuning PPT,TDC,EDC board-values could still keep it's potential 4.6 boost, while falling to near 1v 4ghz allcore (at least for dual CCD units)
1v under [email protected], now taking the 16c into example - should be around 120W - i think around 95W on 12cores for sustained allcore render loads
Although we have CPPC and Precision Boost, soo reality with frequency shuffling would be better efficiency than that ~ if set-up/limited correctly

Oh if i had the money to spare, i totally would grab one
My only concern would be 3 things:
- can you fit a freesync 120/144hz screen onto it
- how thick would that powersuply brick be (including the added weight of it) considering we'd be hitting near 200W (80-90W GPU)
- i actually miss thunderbolt 3 for notebooks
~ well and if that package could move around 2500-3000$

If money was no concern at all and i'd need to decide on it
It's a bit thick, if a user has to consider this thickness and corresponding weight ~ then on IO has to be worken a bit
For a workstation comparing it to something thinkpad like, it misses either dual ethernet ports or at least Thunderbolt 3
Can see this also being used for live audio events and probably be my usecase here too , or hosting LAN parties / server work
I miss TB3 for possible audio and monitor gear, or dual Ethernet ports for anything that relates to server work
Thunderbolt could replace the lack of IO , but it's a bit limiting with what it has right now ~ considering it clearly might not be cheap

If you hit already that high load, i have another concern about the GPU decision and remain current for it
As gaming device or portable render device it's considerable
But i miss the efficiency part here
Looking at how AMD "Precision Boost" on their mobile series, where not only the CPU does vary with voltage but also takes the GPU into account
Going with desktop parts, obviously will lack of this kind of thermal and powerdraw optimization their notebook lineup has
And asking direct help or custom AGESA optimised for that (in case we jump to RDNA GPUs) would make maintaining an issue and so upgradability towards ryzen 4th gen, problematic to say at least

It's hard, without these optimizations a lot of useless powerdraw exists which translates also into weight
I wonder if XMG could consider later on AM4 desktop APUs with 8 cores after they are available
Most of the workstation usecases don't urgently need a strong dedicated GPU, and some virtualization or render usecases need two GPUs

Else a Threadripper notebook would be an unique selling point
Thermal wise it can work ~ thermal, split lanes and 4 m.2 slots, with something small like an RX 5600 could be an imaginable option for Digital Audio Work
But again would need at least 1-2 Thunderbolt3 ports to be useful
It's a niche market, where notebooks are used far more than bulky PCs
This includes portable LAN events ~ just current IO is not suited for either of these usecases and right now people just bring SFX ITX builds with them for such kind of work

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post #23 of 39 (permalink) Old 04-06-2020, 04:31 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Veii View Post
Hmm i wonder why the 3950X pushes 3ghz only on sustained load on your side while still hitting near 82c
Even tho it's not AVX accelerated
Makes me think about a pure 3900X
Usually both ryzen 9's would be a well considerable option, and finetuning PPT,TDC,EDC board-values could still keep it's potential 4.6 boost, while falling to near 1v 4ghz allcore (at least for dual CCD units)
1v under [email protected], now taking the 16c into example - should be around 120W - i think around 95W on 12cores for sustained allcore render loads
Although we have CPPC and Precision Boost, soo reality with frequency shuffling would be better efficiency than that ~ if set-up/limited correctly

Oh if i had the money to spare, i totally would grab one
My only concern would be 3 things:
- can you fit a freesync 120/144hz screen onto it
- how thick would that powersuply brick be (including the added weight of it) considering we'd be hitting near 200W (80-90W GPU)
- i actually miss thunderbolt 3 for notebooks
~ well and if that package could move around 2500-3000$

If money was no concern at all and i'd need to decide on it
It's a bit thick, if a user has to consider this thickness and corresponding weight ~ then on IO has to be worken a bit
For a workstation comparing it to something thinkpad like, it misses either dual ethernet ports or at least Thunderbolt 3
Can see this also being used for live audio events and probably be my usecase here too , or hosting LAN parties / server work
I miss TB3 for possible audio and monitor gear, or dual Ethernet ports for anything that relates to server work
Thunderbolt could replace the lack of IO , but it's a bit limiting with what it has right now ~ considering it clearly might not be cheap

If you hit already that high load, i have another concern about the GPU decision and remain current for it
As gaming device or portable render device it's considerable
But i miss the efficiency part here
Looking at how AMD "Precision Boost" on their mobile series, where not only the CPU does vary with voltage but also takes the GPU into account
Going with desktop parts, obviously will lack of this kind of thermal and powerdraw optimization their notebook lineup has
And asking direct help or custom AGESA optimised for that (in case we jump to RDNA GPUs) would make maintaining an issue and so upgradability towards ryzen 4th gen, problematic to say at least

It's hard, without these optimizations a lot of useless powerdraw exists which translates also into weight
I wonder if XMG could consider later on AM4 desktop APUs with 8 cores after they are available
Most of the workstation usecases don't urgently need a strong dedicated GPU, and some virtualization or render usecases need two GPUs

Else a Threadripper notebook would be an unique selling point
Thermal wise it can work ~ thermal, split lanes and 4 m.2 slots, with something small like an RX 5600 could be an imaginable option for Digital Audio Work
But again would need at least 1-2 Thunderbolt3 ports to be useful
It's a niche market, where notebooks are used far more than bulky PCs
This includes portable LAN events ~ just current IO is not suited for either of these usecases and right now people just bring SFX ITX builds with them for such kind of work



As someone with a desktop tower replacement system, AKA what these are, The power supplies are chunky and it's part and parcel sometimes you will get 2 power supplies and a bridging connector as not all OEMS have the 700W unit available, My system cost 4500 dollars 2 years ago without drives keep in mind this is AUD and here is what i got

Keep in mind i am playing world of warcraft and drives weren't included, I used to have in mine 2x2.5inch 2TB Micron 1100 SSD's in raid 0, Now it's just 3 NVME 250GB Samsung oem drives. Keep in mind this is not an XMG system and i sure as hell don't work for them, I'm merely someone who uses machines of this style.


These kinds of machines come with a plethora of ports i've got 2 thunderbolt - type C hybrid, 2 mini display port 1 HDMI 5 usb type A gen 3's 4 3.5mm jacks with a hybrid optical, card reader 2x 1GBE RJ45 full sized ethernet, Kensington lock
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Me and my roommates watched a standalone video of a guy demonstrating it on YouTube. I lost it when he started stroking it.
Quote:
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I like robo-butts and I can not lie, microchips with a great wave line...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tunechi go_quote.gif

I honestly don't think there's any way to explain it without it sounding weird or one's imagination taking a ride.
Quote:
Originally Posted by candy_van go_quote.gif

I can't even remember the last time I grounded myself before handling stuff.
Unless it's the middle of the winter and I'm moonwalking across my carpet in socks before tearing a PC apart I'm not worried about it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liranan go_quote.gif

A laptop is still a PC, albeit a portable one. You can tell how many laptops there are by looking at the 1366*768. Most people don't play...biggrin.gif


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post #24 of 39 (permalink) Old 04-06-2020, 06:54 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Rayleyne View Post
As someone with a desktop tower replacement system, AKA what these are, The power supplies are chunky and it's part and parcel sometimes you will get 2 power supplies and a bridging connector as not all OEMS have the 700W unit available, My system cost 4500 dollars 2 years ago without drives keep in mind this is AUD and here is what i got
Yep this is a concern noted at the very first post

Something doesn't add up with powerdraw, well temperature for sure
Going over 200W will pretty much guarantee a big fat chunk of PSU you have to cary adding additional weight to the already bulky device
Soo for it's current illustrated bulkyness, it misses a few ports
Overall a 3960X can be pushed down to 160W , like a 3950X can be pushed to 120W
Nearly every 3rd gen CPU these days overvolts on a few parts which together go around as 50W "wasted" powerdraw and heatoutput

Clearly wouldn't want to overshoot 220-250W for the whole thing, but given that RTX cards are not very powersavy, it clearly will
Or you'd have to slow them down by quite a big chunk, if you aren't fixing cpu powerdraw at first

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post #25 of 39 (permalink) Old 04-06-2020, 07:28 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Veii View Post
Yep this is a concern noted at the very first post

Something doesn't add up with powerdraw, well temperature for sure
Going over 200W will pretty much guarantee a big fat chunk of PSU you have to cary adding additional weight to the already bulky device
Soo for it's current illustrated bulkyness, it misses a few ports
Overall a 3960X can be pushed down to 160W , like a 3950X can be pushed to 120W
Nearly every 3rd gen CPU these days overvolts on a few parts which together go around as 50W "wasted" powerdraw and heatoutput

Clearly wouldn't want to overshoot 220-250W for the whole thing, but given that RTX cards are not very powersavy, it clearly will
Or you'd have to slow them down by quite a big chunk, if you aren't fixing cpu powerdraw at first
There are 150w-180w-200w variants of the 2080 so if you are going with that then 2x330w is a must at this point.

I remember there was someone that made a 760w power brick for these kind of laptops that was a little heavier and larger than a regular 330w. (Can be ran on one brick if its CPU only or GPU locked at 150w and CPU locked at 100w)

A 3800x + 2070 super with a nice 1440p G-sync 144hz would be an amazing gaming machine specially if we can change the FLCK and tweak the ram.

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post #26 of 39 (permalink) Old 04-06-2020, 09:01 PM
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Thank you for your additional feedback. All duly noted and will be shared with the ODM as soon as possible.

No news on Desktop APUs yet. I'm told by the powers that be that I should focus my energy on selling the current product first, before daydreaming about future possibilities.



Quote: Originally Posted by Veii View Post
Oh if i had the money to spare, i totally would grab one
My only concern would be 3 things:
- can you fit a freesync 120/144hz screen onto it
- how thick would that powersuply brick be (including the added weight of it) considering we'd be hitting near 200W (80-90W GPU)
- i actually miss thunderbolt 3 for notebooks
XMG APEX 15 already has a 144Hz screen, but without internal G-SYNC.
NVIDIA supports FreeSync (aka G-SYNC compatible) only on external screens.

Power Supply:

230W on XMG APEX 15:
155 x 75 x 30mm
~700g

330W on XMG ULTRA 17:
200 x 100 x 43mm
~860g

Thunderbolt 3... I'm not a fan. Too many random compatibility issues despite costly certification. Almost impossible to get any kind of consistent firmware support because every host and client gets their own proprietary blob with hacks and workarounds.

USB-C with DisplayPort Alt Mode rocks, though. Fast, simple, powerful, stable, compatible.

Cheers,
Tom
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post #27 of 39 (permalink) Old 04-06-2020, 10:46 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by XMG Support View Post
Thank you for your additional feedback. All duly noted and will be shared with the ODM as soon as possible.

Thunderbolt 3... I'm not a fan. Too many random compatibility issues despite costly certification. Almost impossible to get any kind of consistent firmware support because every host and client gets their own proprietary blob with hacks and workarounds.

USB-C with DisplayPort Alt Mode rocks, though. Fast, simple, powerful, stable, compatible.

Cheers,
Tom
Aren't the intel certification days finally over ?
Type-C gen 2x2 would be great if it was actually TB2 cross-compatible on the same bandwidth
So far it's a bit too slow for multi screen and realtime audio work usecases
Although i agree on it being very useful, just still only 20gbps at best

To what i can see, the X570 lineup of asrock boards doesn't use "hacks" just the official Thunderbolt package provided by intel
I can't tell you right now which exact chip it was - don't have it in my mind at the moment
But the proprietary days should be over since at least half a year if not a full year ?

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post #28 of 39 (permalink) Old 04-07-2020, 05:00 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Veii View Post
To what i can see, the X570 lineup of asrock boards doesn't use "hacks" just the official Thunderbolt package provided by intel

There is a distinction between Thunderbolt drivers and (NVM) Firmware.
It's the latter part that is not vendor-agnostic. Every vendor needs to re-certify their devices if they want to receive a Firmware update.
At least that's what docking station manufacturers in Taiwan are telling me. And from experience, it's the same problem for the hosts in laptops.


It's all fine as long as things "just work". But if you read through the Amazon reviews of various Thunderbotl docking stations of major brands like Dell, HP and Lenovo... oh boy...


My favourite Thunderbolt insider factoid:
- Most PC-based laptops only provide a single DisplayPort signal on USB-C/Thunderbolt, because they need to share their video-outs with physical HDMI/DP ports

- In order to split this into multiple monitors, your DockingStations needs an MST IC
- If you don't have an MST IC, even if your dock has multiple video outputs, you'd only be able to use one of them at the same time (workaround: external MST splitter behind the dock)

- But if a vendor builds such an MSC IC into their dock, they cannot get certified by Apple anymore
- This is because Apple does not need MST and/or does not like MST

- Why does Apple not need MST? Because their USB-C ports have 2 DP data streams, not just 1; because they don't have any physical HDMI/DP ports they need to share bandwidth with
- But without Apple certifcation, a vendor loses a good chuck of the market potential


Hence, most vendors don't provide MST in their docks, severely limiting the usability of their docking stations on high-end laptops. Thanks, Apple!
Of course no vendors writes directly into their spec sheet, whether or not their product comes with MST included.


Quote: Originally Posted by Veii View Post
Type-C gen 2x2 would be great if it was actually TB2 cross-compatible on the same bandwidth
So far it's a bit too slow for multi screen and realtime audio work usecases
Although i agree on it being very useful, just still only 20gbps at best

The DisplayPort lanes are independent of the 10Gbit/s data bandwidth of USB 3.1 Gen2. They are basically on-top.

(We don't talk about 2x2 yet.)

Multi-Monitor Setups (perhaps with MST) splitter are absolutely no problem, provided they use native DP signals instead of a data-heavy, video-compressed DisplayLink conversion.


BR,
Tom
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post #29 of 39 (permalink) Old 04-07-2020, 11:10 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by XMG Support View Post
There is a distinction between Thunderbolt drivers and (NVM) Firmware.
It's the latter part that is not vendor-agnostic. Every vendor needs to re-certify their devices if they want to receive a Firmware update.
At least that's what docking station manufacturers in Taiwan are telling me. And from experience, it's the same problem for the hosts in laptops.

It's all fine as long as things "just work". But if you read through the Amazon reviews of various Thunderbolt docking stations of major brands like Dell, HP and Lenovo... oh boy...


My favourite Thunderbolt insider factoid:
- Most PC-based laptops only provide a single DisplayPort signal on USB-C/Thunderbolt, because they need to share their video-outs with physical HDMI/DP ports

- In order to split this into multiple monitors, your DockingStations needs an MST IC
- If you don't have an MST IC, even if your dock has multiple video outputs, you'd only be able to use one of them at the same time (workaround: external MST splitter behind the dock)

- But if a vendor builds such an MSC IC into their dock, they cannot get certified by Apple anymore
- This is because Apple does not need MST and/or does not like MST

- Why does Apple not need MST? Because their USB-C ports have 2 DP data streams, not just 1; because they don't have any physical HDMI/DP ports they need to share bandwidth with
- But without Apple certification, a vendor loses a good chuck of the market potential

Hence, most vendors don't provide MST in their docks, severely limiting the usability of their docking stations on high-end laptops. Thanks, Apple!
Of course no vendors writes directly into their spec sheet, whether or not their product comes with MST included.


The DisplayPort lanes are independent of the 10Gbit/s data bandwidth of USB 3.1 Gen2. They are basically on-top.

(We don't talk about 2x2 yet.)

Multi-Monitor Setups (perhaps with MST) splitter are absolutely no problem, provided they use native DP signals instead of a data-heavy, video-compressed DisplayLink conversion.


BR,
Tom
Thank you a lot for the clear inside information
This clears all up

It's a rabbit hole i can see that
Sadly a lot of people move around the Apple ecosystem still, including a huge chunk of the Audio Gear EcoSystem
Hmm, i guess there needs some bigger push around Type C
But it's still too slow for similar usecases as of TB
Guess we need to wait till 2021 for a more standardized protocol
Nothing to judge anymore then
Maybe a 2nd Ethernet port would still go a long way

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post #30 of 39 (permalink) Old 04-08-2020, 12:40 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Veii View Post
Yep this is a concern noted at the very first post

Something doesn't add up with powerdraw, well temperature for sure
Going over 200W will pretty much guarantee a big fat chunk of PSU you have to cary adding additional weight to the already bulky device
Soo for it's current illustrated bulkyness, it misses a few ports
Overall a 3960X can be pushed down to 160W , like a 3950X can be pushed to 120W
Nearly every 3rd gen CPU these days overvolts on a few parts which together go around as 50W "wasted" powerdraw and heatoutput

Clearly wouldn't want to overshoot 220-250W for the whole thing, but given that RTX cards are not very powersavy, it clearly will
Or you'd have to slow them down by quite a big chunk, if you aren't fixing cpu powerdraw at first
I personally havn't encountered a situation where i would need more ports than what i've got, In most cases i barely use half the ports

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Quote:
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I honestly don't think there's any way to explain it without it sounding weird or one's imagination taking a ride.
Quote:
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I can't even remember the last time I grounded myself before handling stuff.
Unless it's the middle of the winter and I'm moonwalking across my carpet in socks before tearing a PC apart I'm not worried about it.
Quote:
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A laptop is still a PC, albeit a portable one. You can tell how many laptops there are by looking at the 1366*768. Most people don't play...biggrin.gif


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