[AnandTech] SK Hynix: Up to DDR5-8400 at 1.1 Volts - Page 3 - Overclock.net - An Overclocking Community
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[AnandTech] SK Hynix: Up to DDR5-8400 at 1.1 Volts

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post #21 of 114 (permalink) Old 04-06-2020, 10:46 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Liranan View Post
The only consumer AMD chips that haven't had ECC enabled were the FMx parts, my decade old 955BE runs ECC RAM in my server. Intel are the ones who segment the market and force people wanting ECC to get Xeon chips.

Board makers are annoying when it comes to ECC. Usually I buy Asus as Asus boards are compatible with ECC, whereas MSI, Gigabyte and others intentionally disable it. You can check this yourself and compare Asus low end TUF boards with the Carbon AC line and see that even Asus' rubbish boards are compatible with ECC, whereas MSI's high end ones are not.
Yeah according to ASrock, only the Ryzen PRO processors support ECC on X370 Taichi, even though the board supports ECC overall.

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post #22 of 114 (permalink) Old 04-06-2020, 05:02 PM
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DDR data transfer rates Since 1998/1999:
DDR 266:2.1 GB/s
DDR 333:2.6 GB/s
DDR 400:3.2 GB/s


DDR2 data transfer rates:
DDR2 533:4.2 GB/s
DDR2 667:5.3 GB/s
DDR2 800:6.4 GB/s


DDR3 data transfer rates:
DDR3 1066:8.5 GB/s
DDR3 1333:10.6 GB/s
DDR3 1600:12.8 G MB/s
DDR3 1866:14.9 G MB/s


DDR4 data transfer rates:
DDR4 2133:17 GB/s
DDR4 2400:19.2 GB/s
DDR4 2666:21.3 GB/s
DDR4 3200:25.6 GB/s

DDR5 data transfer rates:
DDR5 ????: 38.4 GB/s
DDR5 ????" 51.2 GB/s

GDDR6: 72 GB/s
HBM2: 307 GB/s
HBM3: 512 GBps

Please forgive my lethargic enthusiasm for DDR5 introduction into the market. Some 20+ years since the inception of double data rate.
That's a whooping 1.8 GB/s (roughly) increase per year for the last 21 or so years.
I'm sure many will still pay $200+ for those "kits"

With this kind of news it solidifies my interest into next gen consoles. We will see.


Last edited by EastCoast; 04-06-2020 at 06:10 PM.
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post #23 of 114 (permalink) Old 04-08-2020, 02:09 AM
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ohh look that speed with HBM.. that stacked on Zen4 or Zen5 .. give me

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post #24 of 114 (permalink) Old 04-08-2020, 02:52 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by EastCoast View Post
This is very disconcerting. As more open world games become bandwidth dependent those same developer will have one of 2 options.
1. Spend more resources to back port it back to PC. Which might result in nearly all PC derivatives being slower then console.
2. They don't and move on to the next project.

The number one sandbox game that I'm very concerned with is the next Grand Theft Auto (Honorable Mentions: Saint Row, Assassin's Creed, Watch Dogs, Just Cause, Forza, etc)

Another aspect of FPS gaming that becomes a concern for PC gamers are those sandbox games that are on "rails". However, still look open world. But limits you to traverse in a certain direction. Barriers like Walls, mountains, hill sides, building, etc make it impossible to travel left/right, etc. Other tricks are having to go through a building were only certain doors are open while other doors, don't function. In other words those kind of maps give you the impression of sandbox environment but you aren't able to interact with every aspect of the sandbox environment.

With these memory constraints removed, among other constraints, the whole idea of sandbox games on "rails" become moot. They can simply be an actual sandbox game. With "arrow guides" pointing you in the direction you need to go when needed. And that isn't all, just the tip of the iceburg...you can have more NPCs doing different things: land, air and sea assets traversing the environment, etc. in ways not yet experienced.

We've already seen what the PS5 can do with storage and memory bandwidth with the map alleged to be the next Spiderman game. And the PS5 is alleged to be much slower then the next gen xbox.
https://youtu.be/kManNoHaem0
Start at 0:32 to see the difference.
Now, if Spiderman, alleged game in development in this video, is brought to the PC will the game play experience be the same? IMHO, no.




Here is GTA V to show you what the developer's vision is when it comes to memory bandwidth:
https://youtu.be/HBlQKLs2YGc

Don't get me wrong. With DDR5 it should blow these results out the water. But what will you expect the performance to be when bench marked using next gen consoles?
The PS4 runs BSD so there's a chance the PS5 will run BSD as well but the past few versions of the XBox have run Win 10 with a special XBox UI.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by faraz1729 go_quote.gif
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post #25 of 114 (permalink) Old 04-08-2020, 01:15 PM
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2133Mhz. vs. 3000Mhz. memory speed benchmarks aren't really relevant to the high end anymore. 3600Mhz and up seems to be where the high end PC gamers are now. In that GTA V benchmark video it seemed like more often than not the 1070 was beating out the 1080.

The gigantic gulf in system memory bandwidth between PC system memory at <= 4400Mhz. (even in quad channel) vs. the now usable (i.e. because it doesn't feature a potato-class CPU) Xbox X series memory bandwidth could certainly be problematic for PC gamers for the reasons you pointed out. But even now, some games seem unresponsive to faster memory above a certain threshold. The one thing I wonder about is what the latency is like on GDDR6 vs. DDR4 or DDR5. Some peeps seem to think latency is more important than bandwidth for gaming.
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post #26 of 114 (permalink) Old 04-08-2020, 01:41 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by EastCoast View Post
DDR data transfer rates Since 1998/1999:

DDR4 data transfer rates:
DDR4 2133:17 GB/s
DDR4 2400:19.2 GB/s
DDR4 2666:21.3 GB/s
DDR4 3200:25.6 GB/s

DDR5 data transfer rates:
DDR5 ????: 38.4 GB/s
DDR5 ????" 51.2 GB/s

GDDR6: 72 GB/s
HBM2: 307 GB/s
HBM3: 512 GBps

Please forgive my lethargic enthusiasm for DDR5 introduction into the market. Some 20+ years since the inception of double data rate.
That's a whooping 1.8 GB/s (roughly) increase per year for the last 21 or so years.
I'm sure many will still pay $200+ for those "kits"

With this kind of news it solidifies my interest into next gen consoles. We will see.
But how many PC gaming enthusiasts run their DDR4 memory at 3200Mhz.? I do, but I can't afford the best. It would seem to me 3600Mhz. and up is where PC gaming enthusiasts are running their memory and all the way up to 4400Mhz. on Intel CoffeeLake platforms.

A 9900ks user is running his DDR4 at 4500Mhz. and he's getting more than 61 GiB/sec in Aida64 (and his latency at that speed is 34.9ns):
https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/t...186338/page-41

On the following page is someone with a i9-7980xe skylake getting 90 GiB/sec to 100 GiB/sec at a paltry 3600Mhz:
https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/t...186338/page-38

The memory bus contention issues in the Xbox series X between the GPU and CPU won't be trivial either. When employing any AA the GPU will be using massive amounts of memory bandwidth. High resolution, high FPS gaming also increases the memory bandwidth requirements for the GPU as well. As games use more processes/threads that will also increase memory bandwidth requirements.

On a game properly programmed for a PC system I'd figure memory bus contention issues between GPU/CPU can be minimized (especially with large VRAM footprints).
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post #27 of 114 (permalink) Old 04-08-2020, 02:06 PM
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I'd take a tighter tRCD for better performance in 3D over this bandwidth "boost" anyday at least until they can ramp up those sticks to crazy speeds to make up for crappy timings but that will take years.
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post #28 of 114 (permalink) Old 04-08-2020, 02:19 PM
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There was a link that AMD is implementing a HBM/CPU solution. But I cannot find it at the moment. But here is another article from 2018:
Quote:
AMD Working on DDR5 Memory & “Near Memory”

GamersNexus recently received tips from a highly credible source that works at a major memory supplier. We got enough to write several stories, but we’ll start with this one:

Our present understanding is that AMD is working with at least one memory supplier to establish an on-site R&D lab at the company’s Austin campus, which is being used to research DDR5 and develop the next generation of memory. AMD is trying to beat Intel to market with DDR5, which fits the company’s history of pushing new memory standards earlier. ATi also did this with older revisions of GDDR memory.

Separately, we also learned that AMD is working on what they call “Near Memory,” or HBM being used in conjunction with future CPU components. We’re not clear presently on whether that includes desktop CPUs, but we do know that HBM for CPUs is in active R&D, and given Hades Canyon, that’s not necessarily a big surprise.
https://www.gamersnexus.net/news-pc/...7nm-challenges

And I'm pretty sure Intel is doing the same. So it will eventually happen. DDR as we know it in PC's will eventually change. But by the time it happens the "Console" wars would be over and PC will be playing catch up. From what is rumored not only will you be able to sandbox win10 on console but Linux, etc as well. Adobe Premier will be on console, and other PC specific apps.

Quote:
Here is an article on why this is moving forward on PC:
https://www.techdesignforums.com/pra...-applications/

Choosing between DDR4 and HBM in memory-intensive applications

It has always been a battle to balance the performance of processors and the memory systems that provide their raw data and digest their results. As advanced semiconductor process technologies further concentrate computing power on individual die, the issue is becoming acute, especially in applications such as high-end graphics, high-performance computing (HPC), and some areas of networking.

The heart of the problem is that processor performance is growing at a rate that eclipses that of memory performance. Every year the gap between the two is increasing.

Memory makers have been bridging this gap with successive generations of double data rate (DDR) memories, but their performance is limited by the signal integrity of the DDR parallel interface and the lack of an embedded clock as used in high-speed SerDes interfaces. This leaves system designers with multiple memory issues to solve: bandwidth, latency, power consumption, capacity and cost. The solutions for higher memory bandwidth are simple: either go faster and/or go wider. If you can improve latency and cut the energy consumed per bit transferred, that is a bonus.

HBM has enabled designers to concentrate large amounts of memory close to processors, with enough bandwidth between the two to redress the growing imbalance between processor and memory performance. This is proving attractive in HPC, parallel computing, data center accelerators, digital image and video processing, scientific computing, computer vision, and deep learning applications.

How does the connectivity of DDR and HBM compare? With DDR4 and 5, the DRAM die are packaged and mounted on small PCBs which become dual inline memory modules (DIMMs), and then connected to a motherboard through an edge connector. For HBM2 memory, the hierarchy begins with DRAM die, which are then stacked and interconnected using TSVs, before being connected to a base logic die, which is turn is connected to a 2.5D interposer, which is finally packaged and mounted on the motherboard.

The shorter paths between memory and CPU on HBM2 systems mean that they can run without termination and consume much less energy per bit transmitted than terminated DDR systems. It can be useful to think about this being measured in picoJoules per bit transmitted, or milliwatts per Gigabit per second. The same kind of metrics can be applied to express the power efficiency of the DDR or HBM PHY on the hot SoC


The lower the picojoule the better. Energy efficiency is IMO is just as important as latency, if not more.



To sum up this comparison, DDR4 memory subsystem implementations are useful for creating large capacities with modest bandwidth. The approach has room for improvement. Capacity can be improved by using 3D stacked DRAMs, and RDIMMs or LRDIMMs. HBM2, on the other hand, offers large bandwidth with low capacity. Both the capacity and bandwidth can be improved by adding channels, but there is no option for moving to DIMM style approach, and the approach already uses 3D stacked die. A comparison of present (DDR4, HBM2, GDDR5 and LPDDR4) and future (DDR5, LPDDR5) DRAM features is presented in Figure 6.
https://www.techdesignforums.com/pra...-applications/

Now one will say, cost, cost, cost as the main barrier for this. However, IMO we have to start somewhere. Just like when SSD was introduced for the 1st time. Once it will become mainstream it pricing will get better. As it stands now this is looking like server, mainframe, SOC, HPC, etc. I do hope to one day read this as HPC for gaming.

DDR5 is simply legacy compared to console and we need another solution just like removing the northbridge from the motherboard to cpu. Just like replacing mechanic drives with SSD/M.2, And depreciation of SLI and Crossfire.

And what's worst is that we will have to wait as late as 2022 before we see low latency high speed DDR5. Which will, at a guess, cost you well over $200 for 16GB/+, when compared to console, is just another marginal upgrade. If next gen consoles cost between $500/$600 that's over 30% the cost of just going console alone. That's a hard NO IMO

It's time for a change folks. Consoles have put the writing on the wall.

Last edited by EastCoast; 04-08-2020 at 05:45 PM.
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post #29 of 114 (permalink) Old 04-08-2020, 02:53 PM
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Continued...
The game that I am keeping lookout for the most is the new Halo Infinite game coming out on PC, allegedly, the same time as Xbox Series X later this year. It's ready folks.


Do you think even with DDR5, PC players are going to get the same immersion as on XBSX with this "semi" open world game? Perhaps with hitching as new areas of the map come into view. But from the looks of it, xbsx is going to much smoother. If it plays fine on PC, with the top teir CPU, video card, motherboard, highest rated memory, etc at 2k, let alone 4k I will be surprised. And part of me hope you can play it well at just 2K with current PC hardware.

I was hyped about Cyberpunk 2077 until I heard rumors that Nvidia is so deep in it that it's going to turn into another Batman, Crysis 2 controversy. IE: IQ features disabled unless you have a nvidia card. Or AMD cards stuck running at 30 fps at 720p,1080p, 1440p etc. no matter what you tweak. Certain aspects that AMD cards can't do well will be dial up to 11. AMD Driver team doesn't have full access to the game to optimize for it until after release, etc. So, if that's true I'm not going to waste my time fighting that game on my AMD GPU/Build. I'm simply going XBSX, enough of that crap!

Last edited by EastCoast; 04-08-2020 at 04:33 PM.
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post #30 of 114 (permalink) Old 04-08-2020, 04:03 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by EastCoast View Post
DDR data transfer rates Since 1998/1999:
Spoiler!


its a weird situation. all i can hope is that a super console comes along, and what we know now is the mainstream version.

otherwise, those on current high end hardware will have nowhere to go, with a console scraping heals.

N as you said, hitching!! I see so many people upload videos where they experience load lag & hitching, but say the experience is as smooth as butter.

no. it's not. you're in denial, or blind. Running around in Tomb Raider with frame rate spikes every 45 seconds in an "open" jungle area is NOT smooth as butter.

plz gib 3080ti tier super console. I'd be all about it if they released a second model with genuine high end parts. Instead of a hodgepodge of meh bundled together with decent software.

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Last edited by skupples; 04-08-2020 at 04:08 PM.
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