[AT]Intel’s 10th Gen Comet Lake for Desktops: Skylake-S Hits 10 Cores and 5.3 GHz - Page 29 - Overclock.net - An Overclocking Community
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post #281 of 294 (permalink) Old 05-22-2020, 12:52 AM
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Undervolting doesn't necessarily mean underclocking. And that doesn't look like stock behavior. Gamer's Nexus had much different results. Either way, Gamer's Nexus had no problem cooling their i9-10900K overclocked with a 280mm AIO cooler, likely an Arctic Liquid Freezer II.

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post #282 of 294 (permalink) Old 05-22-2020, 02:39 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by chessmyantidrug View Post
Undervolting doesn't necessarily mean underclocking. And that doesn't look like stock behavior. Gamer's Nexus had much different results. Either way, Gamer's Nexus had no problem cooling their i9-10900K overclocked with a 280mm AIO cooler, likely an Arctic Liquid Freezer II.
Haven't read the post you are responding too, so not taking any sides here, just wanted to mention that Steve (From Gamers Nexus) explicitly stated that when overclocking his 10900k and using his Kraken x62 (Not Arctic Liquid Freezer II) That it was reaching the limits of what the x62 could handle.

Source:

Stock it was no problem even during boosting it was fine, but once you pushed it to 5.2Ghz or More All Core, it did get toasty. I still like the CPU, and will be getting one in for testing soon, and can't wait to play with it, but just wanted to make sure that everyone was realistic with what to expect.

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post #283 of 294 (permalink) Old 05-22-2020, 02:56 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by qwertymac93 View Post
Whoops, I thought the 3950x came with the wraith prism like the 3900x. Still, Anandtech shows the 10900k peaking 100w+ more than the 3950x at stock settings.



That's huge and it would translate into needing to spend a lot more on cooling for the Intel system. The 3950x can still be cooled on air. If the 10900k needs water the cost disparity could easily crest $100. Of course, you could just try to undervolt the 10900k and drop clocks slightly, but then at that point you are giving up the only reason for buying Intel in the first place.
OK, So now I have read the post Chess was referring to. LOL.

So One thing to note, as Steve talks about in that video I posted above, but about a minute or 2 before the Point at which I start it, is that Intel doesn't really define stock, its more of a guidance. So the reason why 2 reviewers could have wildly different power numbers during testing, is because it matters WHEN you took your measurement.

When running the CPU within Intel's Guidance, the CPU will be allowed to boost for a certain amount of time, and when that time is reached, your boost will drop hard, and bring you back down to clocks that keep you within that 125TDP. So if You Test your power at the very beginning of a CBR20 Run, You are likely to see the CPU somewhere around 250-300w, but if you wait until the end of the CBR20 Run once the Turbo has expired, then you are going to find the Power to be right around TDP of 125w.

So this is why it matters at what point the testing was done, and why if you just look at 2 different charts with no context, you can get 2 wildly different impressions.

Because of this power limit, the truth is you could buy this CPU, and put an Air Cooler on it that could cool 125w, and be completely fine. It would be damn toasty, but it would be within spec. Its just if you want to lock in MCE or do an Overclock of your Own, you will MOST DEFINITELY want a better cooler, or you will end up burning up your CPU over time. But if you have no plans to overclock, then don't worry about it. With an Air Cooler you will almost certainly lose out on the TVB Boost, but you will still have a CPU that can game, it just obviously wouldn't be quite as good as the guy with the 360 or 420 AIO Cooler or better.

And to be honest, as someone who runs primarily Ryzen CPU's, this isn't so insanely different from OCing on Ryzen. No Ryzen doesn't burn up near as much, but if you want to All Core Over Clock the 3900x/3950x to the bleeding edge and go for 4.5Ghz all Core, even on a 360mm Cooler she is gonna get toasty under full load. The biggest difference is she doesn't run near as hot when stock, and you have to push her in an all Core Scenario to really get her there. But put an air cooler on her, and under stock conditions she will still boost relatively well, and will not be near as hot as her new competitor.

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post #284 of 294 (permalink) Old 05-22-2020, 09:47 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by chessmyantidrug View Post
I guess if you want to run it stock, or possibly undervolt, then it's fine. But it goes against the criticism of pairing an i9-10900K with a $200 motherboard with a VRM that's actually equipped for it.



Why would you spend $400 on a CPU and use a $20 cooler? Zen clock speeds are dependent on thermals so you're willingly foregoing performance if you use the stock cooler. I guess if all you want is "adequate" then buying the R9 3900X in the first place was a mistake. Math really do be hard.
Why would you bother to OC a Ryzen chip? PBO goes higher than all-core for the lightly threaded stuff, and when lightly threaded you are no where near peak draw even OC'd. You're stuck in the past. Either way his board is good for a lot more than 150w, so your argument is based on a bad foundation to begin with.

Same for the cooler;

https://www.techspot.com/review/1875...liquid-cooler/

So much performance left on the table, oh nooooo.

Quote: Originally Posted by speed_demon View Post
A 3900X most definitely will throttle to 1400MHZ on the stock Wraith Prism LED cooler when used on an X470 motherboard that defaults to having PBO "On", or otherwise active immediately out of the box, as soon as the CPU hits 95c. Entirely default behavior and all entirely freshly built out of the box, running the latest BIOS that the board shipped with I should add.

Everything was set to stock default settings. Nothing had been changed or altered yet from OEM defaults.
Run a chip out of spec and get out of spec results, news at 11...

Turn off PBO, the 125w cooler can handle the 105w chip. Blame your motherboard maker for being dumb and voiding your warranty for you.

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post #285 of 294 (permalink) Old 05-22-2020, 08:33 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by chessmyantidrug View Post
Undervolting doesn't necessarily mean underclocking...
True, but if you want serious efficiency gains you sometimes have to drop clocks 2-5% to drop voltage that extra 10%.

Quote: Originally Posted by chessmyantidrug View Post
...And that doesn't look like stock behavior. Gamer's Nexus had much different results. Either way, Gamer's Nexus had no problem cooling their i9-10900K overclocked with a 280mm AIO cooler, likely an Arctic Liquid Freezer II.
BTW that was stock behavior and GamersNexus did see similar behavior, as noted in their article. The chart I posted was PEAK numbers in a short test. After a certain amount of time the TDP will take over and the CPU will throttle. When I mentioned undervolting/clocking I was referring to the PL2 state, not the other non-boost states. Tau is 56s according to spec but that doesn't mean that is how long you will hold PL2 in your system, especially if you have a weaker cooler. Undervolting and limiting clocks would drop power consumption, allowing PL2 to be held for longer and thus retaining peak performance longer. Some motherboard take a different approach and set Tau to a longer period, which would essentially give you the power consumption closer to the overclocked results shown by gamersnexus here(and require a similarly huge cooler) in this 5 minute test:



Notice when the 10900k is limiting itself to its TDP its power consumption is similar to the 3950x @ ~130w, but its peak 5.2ghz clock power is over 300w! Stock PL2 power limit for the 10900k is 250w. Its worth pointing out getting a huge cooler and setting the power limits to infinity and beyond nets a mere 10% boost in some workloads, which isn't even enough to beat the 3900x at stock much of the time, let alone the 3950x. My point was that you could set peak boost to ~4.7 ghz and drop vcore by 100+mv to drop power back down, which would allow better long term clock stability and allow you to use a much cheaper air cooler, but then the clock speeds are much closer to the 3900x that has higher IPC anyway. It's very tough for an air cooler to handle 250w+ of heat coming out of a dense die, even for "only" 56 seconds, which means if you want performance results as good as just the "stock" results from these reviewers you will need a very good cooler.

Gaming loads, of course are rarely so demanding, but even then with 200w+ of heat being pumped into your case by a high end GPU that just makes it that much harder for an inexpensive cooler to handle the Intel chips. One more reason the 10600k provides a much better value if gaming is one's end-all be-all. I don't really have a problem with the 10600k, its just bigger chips that give me pause, they are really niche products at this point.

The Zen2 chips on the other hand don't need water at all unless you like doubling power consumption while overclocking and tangibly reducing performance in single threaded apps.

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post #286 of 294 (permalink) Old 05-23-2020, 03:20 PM
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It's a bit funny you post GN's power draw chart saying it's stock behavior when it's clearly an all-core overclock at 5.2 GHz and 1.33 volts. That's also an AVX2 workload that isn't representative of real-world usage unless you are running AVX2 workloads yourself.

You need high-end cooling for an i9-10900K, but people are talking about having to spend hundreds of dollars when you can definitely get a 280mm AIO cooler for between $100 and $150. Anyone looking to build a custom loop would more than likely do the same for a Ryzen setup so the cost of cooling is irrelevant in that scenario. We are talking about an enthusiast processor. Anyone looking to buy a CPU in this price bracket isn't going to skimp on cooling.

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post #287 of 294 (permalink) Old 05-23-2020, 05:20 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by chessmyantidrug View Post
It's a bit funny you post GN's power draw chart saying it's stock behavior when it's clearly an all-core overclock at 5.2 GHz and 1.33 volts. That's also an AVX2 workload that isn't representative of real-world usage unless you are running AVX2 workloads yourself.
...
Quote: Originally Posted by qwertymac93 View Post
... Some motherboard take a different approach and set Tau to a longer period, which would essentially give you the power consumption closer to the overclocked results shown by gamersnexus here(and require a similarly huge cooler) in this 5 minute test:
That chart shows both throttled("stock") behavior AND overclocked power consumption. The test was run for 5 minutes, which is longer than the ~1 minute tau spec. The spec won't be taken as gospel by the motherboard manufacturers and the STOCK PL2 limit of 250w will come into play a varying amount, which is why I posted the chart. I realize now that I should've posted the Cinebench n-thread chart as well as an example of short-load behavior(where the *STOCK* 10900k uses 60w more than the 3950x). Beyond that, of course AVX2 is real world! loads of multi-threaded applications use AVX2, those are the kind of loads one would buy a high core count CPU for in the first place. I use Blender and x265 and there are plenty more that people use in the "real world".

Quote: Originally Posted by chessmyantidrug View Post
...
You need high-end cooling for an i9-10900K, but people are talking about having to spend hundreds of dollars when you can definitely get a 280mm AIO cooler for between $100 and $150. Anyone looking to build a custom loop would more than likely do the same for a Ryzen setup so the cost of cooling is irrelevant in that scenario. We are talking about an enthusiast processor. Anyone looking to buy a CPU in this price bracket isn't going to skimp on cooling.
Even $100 is double what is needed for a good air cooler on Zen2. Besides, cost varies quite a bit country to country and some people don't want water in their system AT ALL, by the way. Many of these reviewers are using top end coolers and may be getting results that differ from what people at home will get with their more modest coolers, especially if they want to fit into a smaller case.

I think you are missing the entire point of my original post. I was positing a comparison of the 3950x+b550 VS the 10900k+z490+cooler, based on the assumption that the 3950x price would soon drop enough that it would be price competitive with the 10900k once you consider whole system cost. I was wrong in thinking the 3950x came with the wraith spire, so that does effect things. Prices of everything are in flux because of the CV problem, but in a few months I still suspect the top Zen2 chips to be much cheaper than they were pre-"10th-gen" launch. The 3900x has already seen a price drop.

Maybe this video posted today will explain better than I can here in text:

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post #288 of 294 (permalink) Old 05-23-2020, 05:42 PM
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And that comparison doesn't make any sense. Why are you going to spend $700+ on a CPU and cheap out on the motherboard?

The R9 3900X was $420 two months ago, the same as it is today. What a massive price drop! Zen 2 prices are likely to drop in the coming months since the price has been steadily going down since release. AMD processor releases affect their own prices more than Intel processor releases.

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post #289 of 294 (permalink) Old 05-23-2020, 05:49 PM
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As much as I have tried, this thread is lost to the Ravid Fanboy Menace. No room for nuance or context, all MY WAY IS THE BEST WAY, YOUR WAY DUMB!

Can't say we didn't try. As someone who runs a whole lot of Ryzen these days, I honestly thought AMD Fanboys were the worst (because I tend to be in threads that encounter them way more often, and just see the occaisional Intel Fan boy Troll, which always just made me laugh). However, Now I can clearly see, both sides to the ravid Fan boy Menace are equally challenged.

Hopefully this changes with age, and a little wisdom. Good Luck!

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post #290 of 294 (permalink) Old 05-24-2020, 02:12 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by qwertymac93 View Post
That chart shows both throttled("stock") behavior AND overclocked power consumption. The test was run for 5 minutes, which is longer than the ~1 minute tau spec. The spec won't be taken as gospel by the motherboard manufacturers and the STOCK PL2 limit of 250w will come into play a varying amount, which is why I posted the chart. I realize now that I should've posted the Cinebench n-thread chart as well as an example of short-load behavior(where the *STOCK* 10900k uses 60w more than the 3950x). Beyond that, of course AVX2 is real world! loads of multi-threaded applications use AVX2, those are the kind of loads one would buy a high core count CPU for in the first place. I use Blender and x265 and there are plenty more that people use in the "real world".



Even $100 is double what is needed for a good air cooler on Zen2. Besides, cost varies quite a bit country to country and some people don't want water in their system AT ALL, by the way. Many of these reviewers are using top end coolers and may be getting results that differ from what people at home will get with their more modest coolers, especially if they want to fit into a smaller case.

I think you are missing the entire point of my original post. I was positing a comparison of the 3950x+b550 VS the 10900k+z490+cooler, based on the assumption that the 3950x price would soon drop enough that it would be price competitive with the 10900k once you consider whole system cost. I was wrong in thinking the 3950x came with the wraith spire, so that does effect things. Prices of everything are in flux because of the CV problem, but in a few months I still suspect the top Zen2 chips to be much cheaper than they were pre-"10th-gen" launch. The 3900x has already seen a price drop.

Maybe this video posted today will explain better than I can here in text:
There is NO 3950x stock cooler....

CPU24/7) 7980xe - 7900xMOBO: ASUS Rampage Apex x299 / Asrock Taichi x299RAM: 4x 3600c15 / 4x4266c19/ 4x4000 c17 GPU: 2x MSI tri X 2080ti / 1060tiSTORAGE: Areca 1883i HDD R6 + Samsung 850PROs R0 - 3x SM961 nvme 1TB - 3x Intel Optane 900p 480GBCASE: LD cooling V8 R/B / ld cooling reverse R/BMonitor: Acer x34 /Asus 27 AQ 4k g-sync / Asrock x570 Taichi / 3900x
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