[Windows Central] Microsoft discusses Xbox Series X backward compatibility, includes HDR and up to 120 FPS on older games - Page 2 - Overclock.net - An Overclocking Community
Forum Jump: 

[Windows Central] Microsoft discusses Xbox Series X backward compatibility, includes HDR and up to 120 FPS on older games

Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #11 of 23 (permalink) Old 06-01-2020, 10:47 AM
AMD Acolyte
 
qwertymac93's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: just here
Posts: 1,564
Rep: 77 (Unique: 71)
Quote: Originally Posted by 8051 View Post
Rendering an SDR game in HDR seems pointless unless the game has higher than SDR precision originally. If you have 64 shades of grey in the original lightmaps and textures to map that smaller set to a larger set of 256 shades of grey is entirely arbitrary and will STILL end up only using 64 shades of grey unless you want to somehow randomize which shades of grey from the larger set are used.

They've created emulators for other consoles for PC so it's obviously not impossible, but it seems like such emulators always have bugs and require all sorts of fixes and code maintenance.
HDR output is relatively new, HDR rendering is not. A lot of "SDR" games were still using HDR rendering, but not HDR output. Many already had the "256 shades of grey", even in the PS3/x360 era.

I have no idea how Microsoft are enabling HDR output, but if they are intercepting the data before tone-mapping it isn't "faking it", it's real HDR. As good as a brand new title optimized for HDR output by the original artists? Probably not, but real nonetheless.

That said, the wording in the article makes it sound like this is just some ENB-style filter applied at the end, which wouldn't work nearly as well. Usually the people writing these kinds of announcements aren't engineers so maybe the author just didn't understand how the tech worked and used vague terms. Or MS doesn't want Sony to know too much.

"We should make it clear that NVIDIA is a good company, and we respect their attempted transition into being a smartphone company." - Roy Taylor, AMD

BF3 STATS/BF4 STATS
z87
(20 items)
Media/File server
(14 items)
CPU
Core i5 4670k - [email protected]
Motherboard
MSI z87m GAMING
GPU
ASUS RX5700
RAM
A-DATA 2x4GB DDR3
RAM
PNY 2x4GB DDR3
Hard Drive
XPG SX8100
Hard Drive
Seagate 3TB
Power Supply
Antec TruePower TP-550
Cooling
Xigmatek Gaia + Cougar VortexPWM
Case
Silverstone PS07
Operating System
Windows 10 PRO
Operating System
MANJARO 20
Monitor
Viewsonic VX3211
Keyboard
CM Storm QuickFire Rapid
Mouse
Logitech G402
Mouse
Reflex Lab Pro 32 Heavy
Audio
Beyerdynamic DT 770 PRO-80
Audio
Yamaha RX-V663
Audio
Micca MB42x Bookshelf Speakers
Audio
SMSL Q5
CPU
Intel I5 4590
Motherboard
A DELL
RAM
8GB DDR3
Hard Drive
2x Seagate Barracuda ST6000DM003
Hard Drive
2x 8TB External HDD
Optical Drive
Lite-On Blu-Ray WH14NS40
Power Supply
Corsair CX-430
Operating System
Windows 10 PRO + KDE NEON
Monitor
TCL 55S525
Keyboard
Logitech K400
Audio
Sony STR-DN1070
Audio
Definitive Technology BP8 Tower Speakers
Audio
Definitive Technology 2002 Series Center Speaker
Audio
Definitive Technology ProMonitor 1000 Bookshelf Speakers
▲ hide details ▲

Last edited by qwertymac93; 06-01-2020 at 10:54 AM.
qwertymac93 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #12 of 23 (permalink) Old 06-01-2020, 10:59 AM
New to Overclock.net
 
mothergoose729's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Citrus Heights, CA
Posts: 5,821
Rep: 345 (Unique: 285)
This just in - XBOX is basically a PC. Upgrading internals brings better performance. New study concludes that water is indeed wet. Now Jim with the weather.
mothergoose729 is offline  
post #13 of 23 (permalink) Old 06-01-2020, 11:08 AM
New to Overclock.net
 
EniGma1987's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 6,529
Rep: 348 (Unique: 257)
Quote: Originally Posted by 8051 View Post
How can you add HDR to titles that never had it? It seems like it would be mapping a smaller set of SDR values to HDR values, but how do you do that? If, for example, you now have 256 different shades of HDR grey how do you know which value to map the 64 shades of SDR grey to? I'd think SDR games would only use an SDR palette for their artwork (e.g. texture maps).
My guess would be in a similar manner as ambient occlusion or edge detect anti-aliasing. AO detects corners and crevices and darkens them for greater contrast and depth. With auto-HDR, I bet it would detect edges in models and geometry and run a check with lighting and determine whether it should remap a value "extra high" to create a highlight effect that HDR uses as a way of increasing contrast. Doing it this way would allow for automatically adding a fake HDRE to any game whether it was designed for it or not, and while the effect wouldnt be as good as true HDR, I bet it would still look better on a true HDR compatible TV than just playing the whole thing in SDR mode. Similar to how adding ambient occlusion looks better than not adding it, even though it is basically just a post process effect when it comes down to it.

EniGma1987 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #14 of 23 (permalink) Old 06-01-2020, 02:11 PM
New to Overclock.net
 
8051's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 3,596
Rep: 30 (Unique: 21)
Some HDR games don't even do HDR right

In Red Dead Redemption 2 this video discusses how its HDR implementation ends up being SDR in an HDR container at the 10-minute mark:

Considering how few games actually support HDR it's hard to imagine most of them are programmed to support HDR art assets as opposed to SDR art assets. Are the artists even creating their assets with 12-bit HDR with non-HDR games? The art assets would take up more storage space and VRAM with no advantage.
8051 is offline  
post #15 of 23 (permalink) Old 06-01-2020, 04:39 PM
New to Overclock.net
 
mothergoose729's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Citrus Heights, CA
Posts: 5,821
Rep: 345 (Unique: 285)
HDR in games period is not great. For the most part you just get crushed blacks and blinding coronas. HDR for old games without code updates can't work.

But the Xbox is basically a PC. And microsoft owns quite a few dev studios. They can just patch old games for Xbox X users.
mothergoose729 is offline  
post #16 of 23 (permalink) Old 06-01-2020, 08:03 PM
New to Overclock.net
 
Malinkadink's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 3,109
Rep: 108 (Unique: 84)
Quote: Originally Posted by 8051 View Post
Some HDR games don't even do HDR right

In Red Dead Redemption 2 this video discusses how its HDR implementation ends up being SDR in an HDR container at the 10-minute mark:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDGIU88p-EU

Considering how few games actually support HDR it's hard to imagine most of them are programmed to support HDR art assets as opposed to SDR art assets. Are the artists even creating their assets with 12-bit HDR with non-HDR games? The art assets would take up more storage space and VRAM with no advantage.
Yeah this is one of the reasons i dont play any new title in HDR on consoles unless i check some videos out detailing whether the HDR implementation is solid or not, and most of the time it isn't. In a dark room HDR is more painful than good anyways so im fine with SDR.

Malinkadink is offline  
post #17 of 23 (permalink) Old 06-01-2020, 09:27 PM
PC Evangelist
 
ZealotKi11er's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Toronto, CA
Posts: 46,498
Rep: 1806 (Unique: 1179)
Quote: Originally Posted by mothergoose729 View Post
HDR in games period is not great. For the most part you just get crushed blacks and blinding coronas. HDR for old games without code updates can't work.

But the Xbox is basically a PC. And microsoft owns quite a few dev studios. They can just patch old games for Xbox X users.
In same games its very good. Ni no Kuni 2 in PC is one example. I also really like HDR in Horizon Zero Dawn. In PC it's mostly broken.

Yamato
(10 items)
Ishimura
(13 items)
CPU
AMD Ryzen 7 3700X
Motherboard
ASUS TUF Gaming X570-Plus (Wi-Fi)
GPU
AMD Radeon RX 5700 XT
RAM
G.SKILL Trident Z RGB (2x8GB) DDR4 3200MHz CL14
Hard Drive
Samsung SM961 512GB
Hard Drive
HGST DeskStar NAS 6TB
Power Supply
EVGA SuperNOVA 750 P2
Cooling
Gamdias Chione M1A-280R
Case
Fractal Design Meshify C TG
Operating System
Microsoft Windows 10 Pro 64 Bit
CPU
Intel Core i7-3770K @ 4.8GHz
Motherboard
ASRock Z77E-ITX
GPU
AMD Radeon Vega Frontier Edition
RAM
AVEXIR Blitz 1.1 16GB DDR3-2400MHz CL10
Hard Drive
SanDisk Ultra II 960GB
Hard Drive
Toshiba X300 5TB
Power Supply
EVGA SuperNOVA 750 G3
Cooling
Corsair H100i GTX
Case
Fractal Design Define Nano S
Operating System
Microsoft Windows 10 Pro 64 Bit
Monitor
LG OLED55C7P
Keyboard
Cooler Master MasterKeys MK750
Mouse
Finalmouse Air58 Ninja
▲ hide details ▲


ZealotKi11er is offline  
post #18 of 23 (permalink) Old 06-02-2020, 02:53 PM
New to Overclock.net
 
Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 97
Rep: 0
Quote: Originally Posted by Slaughtahouse View Post
Great move by Microsoft. I hope there is some consistency across titles. All existing titles should target 4K / 60fps. The common resolution and frame rate of modern TVs.

That being said, I have a feeling it will be a case by case application. As Juub mentioned, some impacts to titles are serious. The From Software titles are notoriously known for this and result in a game breaking experience. They are also a strong outlier compared to most titles. I expect all the major AAAs to embrace the modifications. I.E. COD, Assassins Creed, GoW etc.

On a personal note, I skipped the last generation of consoles but if this comes to fruition, it may be a great investment. As now all my old 360 titles get a nice enhancement. Hard to justify a purchase to the other ecosystem (Playstation).
They've covered almost all their bases moving forward. Having nice microsoft exclusives would just be icing.

I think it would be great if Sony just becomes third party.
amtelocn1 is offline  
post #19 of 23 (permalink) Old 06-03-2020, 02:45 AM
New to Overclock.net
 
Malinkadink's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 3,109
Rep: 108 (Unique: 84)
Quote: Originally Posted by amtelocn1 View Post
They've covered almost all their bases moving forward. Having nice microsoft exclusives would just be icing.

I think it would be great if Sony just becomes third party.
Lol no way, maybe some Sony games come to PC years after they were on the console but they'll never get to Xbox. Also Sony makes too much $$$ on PS+, the console sales barely make money, its all subscriptions these days.

Malinkadink is offline  
post #20 of 23 (permalink) Old 06-03-2020, 04:41 AM - Thread Starter
New to Overclock.net
 
ILoveHighDPI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 3,535
Rep: 138 (Unique: 88)
Quote: Originally Posted by amtelocn1 View Post
They've covered almost all their bases moving forward. Having nice microsoft exclusives would just be icing.

I think it would be great if Sony just becomes third party.
If the trend of PC releases continues you will have your wish.
ILoveHighDPI is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Overclock.net - An Overclocking Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off