[Windows Central] Microsoft discusses Xbox Series X backward compatibility, includes HDR and up to 120 FPS on older games - Overclock.net - An Overclocking Community
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[Windows Central] Microsoft discusses Xbox Series X backward compatibility, includes HDR and up to 120 FPS on older games

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post #1 of 23 (permalink) Old 05-28-2020, 09:56 PM - Thread Starter
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[Windows Central] Microsoft discusses Xbox Series X backward compatibility, includes HDR and up to 120 FPS on older games

https://www.windowscentral.com/xbox-...ps-adds-hdr-4k

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Backward compatible games run natively on the Xbox Series X hardware, running with the full power of the CPU, GPU, and the SSD. No boost mode, no downclocking, the full power of the Xbox Series X for each and every backward compatible game. This means that all titles run at the peak performance that they were originally designed for, many times even higher performance than the games saw on their original launch platform, resulting in higher and more steady frame rates and rendering at their maximum resolution and visual quality. Backward compatible titles also see significant reductions in in-game load times from the massive leap in performance from our custom NVMe SSD which powers the Xbox Velocity Architecture... In partnership with the Xbox Advanced Technology Group, Xbox Series X delivers a new, innovative HDR reconstruction technique which enables the platform to automatically add HDR support to games. As this technique is handled by the platform itself, it allows us to enable HDR with zero impact to the game's performance and we can also apply it to Xbox 360 and original Xbox titles developed almost 20 years ago, well before the existence of HDR.
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Techniques such as the Heutchy method, which enables titles to render with increased resolutions up to 4K, or applying anisotropic filtering to improve the final image quality bring these classic games up to modern standards, better than ever before... The compatibility team has invented brand new techniques that enable even more titles to run at higher resolutions and image quality while still respecting the artistic intent and vision of the original creators. We are also creating whole new classes of innovations including the ability to double the frame rate of a select set of titles from 30 FPS to 60 FPS or 60 FPS to 120 FPS.
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post #2 of 23 (permalink) Old 05-28-2020, 10:01 PM - Thread Starter
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My #1 question now is whether or not there is any conflict between enhancing both framerate and resolution at the same time. We could be getting a fair number of titles hitting 4K120fps depending on how flexible the system is.

On top of that we're getting the AI HDR mapping, which I'm sure Nvidia would love to adapt into their own RTX drivers but for now this is the first we've seen of HDR being added to prior generations.

The Xbox Backward Compatibility team has got to be one of the best things to happen to gaming in recent years.
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post #3 of 23 (permalink) Old 05-28-2020, 11:10 PM
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How can you add HDR to titles that never had it? It seems like it would be mapping a smaller set of SDR values to HDR values, but how do you do that? If, for example, you now have 256 different shades of HDR grey how do you know which value to map the 64 shades of SDR grey to? I'd think SDR games would only use an SDR palette for their artwork (e.g. texture maps).

Compatibility with Xbox360 games would be interesting considering its built on the PowerPC architecture and the graphics processing relied on its eDRAM. Maybe in that case they would just port the PC version across?

It will be interesting to see how much power the Xbox Series X really has for native games.
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post #4 of 23 (permalink) Old 05-28-2020, 11:53 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by 8051 View Post
How can you add HDR to titles that never had it? It seems like it would be mapping a smaller set of SDR values to HDR values, but how do you do that? If, for example, you now have 256 different shades of HDR grey how do you know which value to map the 64 shades of SDR grey to? I'd think SDR games would only use an SDR palette for their artwork (e.g. texture maps).

Compatibility with Xbox360 games would be interesting considering its built on the PowerPC architecture and the graphics processing relied on its eDRAM. Maybe in that case they would just port the PC version across?

It will be interesting to see how much power the Xbox Series X really has for native games.
Don't TVs have software based SDR to HDR feature already which some AV enthusiasts call fake HDR? Maybe Microsoft's version is a much better form of that.

I wonder if AMD, Sony and Microsoft are cooking up their better versions of Samsung's Game Motion Plus to increase framerate. I think Sony has some form of it or something where they dabbled with it using their VR Headset. Was called reprojection I think.

Edited: Instead of "I wonder why" to "I wonder if".

Last edited by amtelocn1; 05-29-2020 at 03:24 PM.
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post #5 of 23 (permalink) Old 05-29-2020, 06:34 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by ILoveHighDPI View Post
My #1 question now is whether or not there is any conflict between enhancing both framerate and resolution at the same time. We could be getting a fair number of titles hitting 4K120fps depending on how flexible the system is.

On top of that we're getting the AI HDR mapping, which I'm sure Nvidia would love to adapt into their own RTX drivers but for now this is the first we've seen of HDR being added to prior generations.

The Xbox Backward Compatibility team has got to be one of the best things to happen to gaming in recent years.
There shouldn't be any problem if said frame rate doesn't exceed the theoretical cap of the game and has resolutions that are supported. For instance, some guy dabbled in the debug mode of Bloodborne and found out you ran into some issues at 60fps because of the game's cycle. The speed of everything doubled but he was able to tweak some things to fix it. Same thing happened with DsFix which was uncapped to 60fps but had some bugs there.

Resolution is the same thing. Bloodborne supports 720p, 900p and 1080p according to the code I believe. The guy tried testing some resolutions in between and the game either crashed or defaulted to one of those resolutions.

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post #6 of 23 (permalink) Old 05-29-2020, 07:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote: Originally Posted by Juub View Post
There shouldn't be any problem if said frame rate doesn't exceed the theoretical cap of the game and has resolutions that are supported. For instance, some guy dabbled in the debug mode of Bloodborne and found out you ran into some issues at 60fps because of the game's cycle. The speed of everything doubled but he was able to tweak some things to fix it. Same thing happened with DsFix which was uncapped to 60fps but had some bugs there.

Resolution is the same thing. Bloodborne supports 720p, 900p and 1080p according to the code I believe. The guy tried testing some resolutions in between and the game either crashed or defaulted to one of those resolutions.
It could be implied that they're using the Heutchy Method on Xbox One games now, in which case developer support of higher resolutions is not needed:
https://majornelson.com/2017/10/23/p...r-on-xbox-one/
"The team developed the Heutchy Method (after the engineer who created it) which leverages the power of Xbox One X to let the Xbox 360 emulator present the very best version of the game possible with the existing assets—all without touching the game code."

This is pretty close to ideal for my standards, if developers were actually going to patch their games you can bet most of them would muck it up with more bokeh and SSAO instead of allowing for better clarity and performance.
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post #7 of 23 (permalink) Old 05-31-2020, 03:33 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by 8051 View Post
How can you add HDR to titles that never had it? It seems like it would be mapping a smaller set of SDR values to HDR values, but how do you do that? If, for example, you now have 256 different shades of HDR grey how do you know which value to map the 64 shades of SDR grey to? I'd think SDR games would only use an SDR palette for their artwork (e.g. texture maps).

Compatibility with Xbox360 games would be interesting considering its built on the PowerPC architecture and the graphics processing relied on its eDRAM. Maybe in that case they would just port the PC version across?

It will be interesting to see how much power the Xbox Series X really has for native games.
A lot of games last gen used higher than SDR precision internally and mapped down during final rendering and output. Even really old games like Half life 2: episode 1 did it this way. It's possible the Xbox team are intercepting the data before it's mapped down, or are modifying the tone map itself so the data can be output with a higher range.

As far as the x360's eDRAM, they could emulate that by reserving a portion of the main GDDR6 for it. The first 10GB have over double the bandwidth of the x360's eDRAM(560GB/s VS 256GB/s).

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post #8 of 23 (permalink) Old 05-31-2020, 10:20 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by qwertymac93 View Post
A lot of games last gen used higher than SDR precision internally and mapped down during final rendering and output. Even really old games like Half life 2: episode 1 did it this way. It's possible the Xbox team are intercepting the data before it's mapped down, or are modifying the tone map itself so the data can be output with a higher range.

As far as the x360's eDRAM, they could emulate that by reserving a portion of the main GDDR6 for it. The first 10GB have over double the bandwidth of the x360's eDRAM(560GB/s VS 256GB/s).
Rendering an SDR game in HDR seems pointless unless the game has higher than SDR precision originally. If you have 64 shades of grey in the original lightmaps and textures to map that smaller set to a larger set of 256 shades of grey is entirely arbitrary and will STILL end up only using 64 shades of grey unless you want to somehow randomize which shades of grey from the larger set are used.

They've created emulators for other consoles for PC so it's obviously not impossible, but it seems like such emulators always have bugs and require all sorts of fixes and code maintenance.
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post #9 of 23 (permalink) Old 05-31-2020, 11:15 PM
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I love that MS is doing this, but i can't help but wish Sony was more invested in this idea as well. Bringing the huge PS2 library forward with higher resolutions and stable FPS targets would be great. A lot of PS2 games actually have fairly good art assets, they just look muddy because most of the games are 480i.

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post #10 of 23 (permalink) Old 06-01-2020, 06:19 AM
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Great move by Microsoft. I hope there is some consistency across titles. All existing titles should target 4K / 60fps. The common resolution and frame rate of modern TVs.

That being said, I have a feeling it will be a case by case application. As Juub mentioned, some impacts to titles are serious. The From Software titles are notoriously known for this and result in a game breaking experience. They are also a strong outlier compared to most titles. I expect all the major AAAs to embrace the modifications. I.E. COD, Assassins Creed, GoW etc.

On a personal note, I skipped the last generation of consoles but if this comes to fruition, it may be a great investment. As now all my old 360 titles get a nice enhancement. Hard to justify a purchase to the other ecosystem (Playstation).

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