[AnandTech] Intel Thunderbolt 4 Update: Controllers and Tiger Lake in 2020 - Page 2 - Overclock.net - An Overclocking Community

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[AnandTech] Intel Thunderbolt 4 Update: Controllers and Tiger Lake in 2020

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post #11 of 21 (permalink) Old 07-09-2020, 05:48 AM
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DMA protection is the big one

Given the security risks of existing Thunderbolt versions.


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post #12 of 21 (permalink) Old 07-09-2020, 07:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote: Originally Posted by maltamonk View Post
Did you not read the article? There was a pretty big section on it. Intel VT-d required for now.
Intel confirmed it's open:

Quote:
When we asked Intel to confirm if AMD-Vi met the requirements for TB4's DMA protection, we were given the following quote:

Thunderbolt is open to non-Intel-based systems. Like any other system, devices must pass Thunderbolt certification and end-to-end testing conducted by third-party labs. Thunderbolt 4 requirements include Intel VT-d based or an equivalent DMA protection technology that provides IO virtualization (often referred to as IO Memory Management Unit or IOMMU), as well as OS implementation support. If the equivalent technology supports prevention against physical attacks, then that should meet the requirement.

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post #13 of 21 (permalink) Old 07-09-2020, 04:29 PM
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Neat. Looks like a mild evolutionary change, rather than having a large difference over the previous gen. On the plus side Intel is sticking with the USB-C form factor - A positive as Intel is not known for sticking with a given form factor for very long as we've seen with the socket changes to motherboards.

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post #14 of 21 (permalink) Old 07-09-2020, 06:36 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by EniGma1987 View Post
Thunderbolt 3 already does 40gb and uses a type-C interface. So what does this do that warrants a name change?
The addition of USB 4 support. You know for all those USB 4 devices out there..

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post #15 of 21 (permalink) Old 07-09-2020, 11:59 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by maltamonk View Post
Did you not read the article? There was a pretty big section on it. Intel VT-d required for now.
Should take your own advice it seems.
DMA is required, not intel VT-d. VT-d is an implementation, and AMD also support it, apple also support it, and arm also support it. They all support the IOMMU, and I expect all of them will support and pass validation. Same reason why TB3 was "intel only" but was supported by AMD.
So again, what restrictions?

Quote: Originally Posted by Lexi is Dumb View Post
The addition of USB 4 support. You know for all those USB 4 devices out there..
USB 4 standard came out last year.
So you expect USB 4 devices to be released before you have USB 4 connections in your hardware?
Intel releasing TB4 is done before actual implementations of TB4, because you know, you need to stick that hardware somewhere, and not where the sun doesn't shine.


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post #16 of 21 (permalink) Old 07-10-2020, 02:15 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Defoler View Post
Should take your own advice it seems.
DMA is required, not intel VT-d. VT-d is an implementation, and AMD also support it, apple also support it, and arm also support it. They all support the IOMMU, and I expect all of them will support and pass validation. Same reason why TB3 was "intel only" but was supported by AMD.
So again, what restrictions?



USB 4 standard came out last year.
So you expect USB 4 devices to be released before you have USB 4 connections in your hardware?
Intel releasing TB4 is done before actual implementations of TB4, because you know, you need to stick that hardware somewhere, and not where the sun doesn't shine.
Considering most USB3 hardware is just rebranded USB 2 and thus barely manage 5MB/s USB4 won't make a difference to most people or the USB drives they buy.

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post #17 of 21 (permalink) Old 07-10-2020, 06:34 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Defoler View Post
Should take your own advice it seems.
DMA is required, not intel VT-d. VT-d is an implementation, and AMD also support it, apple also support it, and arm also support it. They all support the IOMMU, and I expect all of them will support and pass validation. Same reason why TB3 was "intel only" but was supported by AMD.
So again, what restrictions?
Well directly from the article:

Quote:
Intel refused to comment on how other vendors might implement DMA protection, stating that it would be up to them. While additional security protections are always a good thing, they ideally need to be based around open vettable standards, something which might limit Thunderbolt for another generation as an Intel-only technology (whereas USB is far more ubiquitous).
So ya...I did read it.
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post #18 of 21 (permalink) Old 07-10-2020, 07:26 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by speed_demon View Post
Neat. Looks like a mild evolutionary change, rather than having a large difference over the previous gen. On the plus side Intel is sticking with the USB-C form factor - A positive as Intel is not known for sticking with a given form factor for very long as we've seen with the socket changes to motherboards.
Just to clarify, all the other forms of USB are also an Intel thing, and we've been using that for 20 years. Intel is also partially responsible for PCI-e (17 years), PCI (12 years) and AGP (7 years).

They're just bad at CPU sockets, not standards as a whole.

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post #19 of 21 (permalink) Old 07-10-2020, 10:18 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Defoler View Post
Thunderbolt is using PCIE 4x 3.0 and DP data-streaming in order to achieve 40gb/s.
Meaning it can give 32gb/s on PCIE or 20gb/s on DP 1.2, or a combination of part of each. But not every device support the mixture, so a pure PCIE connecting hardware (like a eGPU) will be basically limited to 32gb/s.
Thunderbolt 4 will use PCIE 4.0, which means you can get pure PCIE hardware running at 40gb/s without needing to run specialized firmware or intel specific thunderbolt chips to get it to work.
It will also support USB 4 running at 40gb/s data, higher watt and amps, better data security etc.

So it is not just a name change. There are good reason to switch for it over TB3 even if they have the same data rate on paper.
I also hope it will support DP 2.0, but that is a bit of a long shot, as intel and apple wants to make TB the standard over DP.
So does this mean that there will be 3 big players in the video display market? DP, HDMI, and now TB?

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post #20 of 21 (permalink) Old 07-10-2020, 02:14 PM
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Well considering Apple gave them a finger I wonder who will be buying all those unobtainable Thunderbolt accessories and devices to use with TB4.

Lets call it a security fix of TB3. While USB4 will take over for mass market.
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