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[Guru3D] Intel to revamp Identity with new logos and EVO, hinting at Alder Lake?

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post #21 of 30 (permalink) Old 07-30-2020, 09:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote: Originally Posted by Hueristic View Post
Yes. They did all they could to delay multi threaded aps as that was what AMD had been working on for over a decade. If they didn't have such a dominant position buldozer would have faired much better over time and we would all have had multi threaded programs much sooner. Just Intel doing what intel does, if they cannot compete then they try to change the landscape woth their market share. Its exactly what they are doing with AVX512 right now. The sad part is if they hadn't slowed muti threading progress and had been developing multi core themselves i instead of sitting on their butts reselling the same chip reprocessed then they would more than likely still be in the lead. Its not like it wasn't inevitable anyway as there are diminishing returns trying to eak out performance from a single core.
You're argument is hilarious, we've had more threads from Intel since 2010 due to SMT compared to AMD's Bulldozer. The lack of multi-threading in consumer apps is due to lazy/greedy developers which is the reason AMD x86_64 even exist. ARM is the future of computing, x86 semiconductor will need to find ways to compete to stay relevant.

Intel is implementing AVX-512 to compete with ARM chips that have dedicated AI hardware. It's just a matter of time before AMD implements similar instructions.

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post #22 of 30 (permalink) Old 07-30-2020, 09:09 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by WannaBeOCer View Post
You're argument is hilarious, we've had more threads from Intel since 2010 due to SMT compared to AMD's Bulldozer. The lack of multi-threading in consumer apps is due to lazy/greedy developers which is the reason AMD x86_64 even exist. ARM is the future of computing, x86 semiconductor will need to find ways to compete to stay relevant.

Intel is implementing AVX-512 to compete with ARM chips that have dedicated AI hardware. It's just a matter of time before AMD implements similar instructions.
Since Sandy Intel has played it extremely safe. 10nm/7nm is all because of what they knew for TSMC 7nm/5nm. Their core count increase in their server lineup was like 2-4 Core.

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post #23 of 30 (permalink) Old 07-30-2020, 09:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote: Originally Posted by ZealotKi11er View Post
Since Sandy Intel has played it extremely safe. 10nm/7nm is all because of what they knew for TSMC 7nm/5nm. Their core count increase in their server lineup was like 2-4 Core.
We've had up to 22 core Xeons by 2016 before the first 32 Epyc processor was out. That same year they released their 28 core Xeons.

They need to switch to smaller chiplets than 28 cores to bring production cost down.

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post #24 of 30 (permalink) Old 07-30-2020, 10:23 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by WannaBeOCer View Post
You're argument is hilarious, we've had more threads from Intel since 2010 due to SMT compared to AMD's Bulldozer. The lack of multi-threading in consumer apps is due to lazy/greedy developers which is the reason AMD x86_64 even exist. ARM is the future of computing, x86 semiconductor will need to find ways to compete to stay relevant.

Intel is implementing AVX-512 to compete with ARM chips that have dedicated AI hardware. It's just a matter of time before AMD implements similar instructions.
We've been hearing this for years and yet it hasn't come to pass. For ARM to compete against x86 their CPU's will need to become huge and will consume just as much power as x86, thus apart from mobile and servers x86 will continue to dominate. Currently the fastest super computer is ARM, followed by IBM.

IBM have produced amazing chips for the past decade and yet they haven't been able to dominate on the desktop because they lack instruction sets, ARM has the same problem and have an uphill battle against AMD and Intel.

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post #25 of 30 (permalink) Old 07-31-2020, 06:28 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Hueristic View Post
Yes. They did all they could to delay multi threaded aps as that was what AMD had been working on for over a decade. If they didn't have such a dominant position buldozer would have faired much better over time and we would all have had multi threaded programs much sooner. Just Intel doing what intel does, if they cannot compete then they try to change the landscape woth their market share. Its exactly what they are doing with AVX512 right now. The sad part is if they hadn't slowed muti threading progress and had been developing multi core themselves i instead of sitting on their butts reselling the same chip reprocessed then they would more than likely still be in the lead. Its not like it wasn't inevitable anyway as there are diminishing returns trying to eak out performance from a single core.
Gotcha. Initially I thought you were referring to events like the p3 bug that Intel jerked around reviewers with before admitting fault as the press piled on. So the issue with what you said, and not what you bring up but what Intel is doing that AVX and AVX2 instructions cause energy use to rise while they're executing. AVX512 is considerable and most processors throttle by downclocking, correct? I'm not seeing what Intel is trying to achieve here. I know that AVX512 is fairly niche still and the costs to implement in software are high. Thanks for the info. Have to admit I did find Intel's unicorn 56 core glued processor funny. In large compute, it's 'cheaper' in the long run go to with NVidia et al. over an Intel processor simply because of the costs and the massive performance difference. Like most of Intel's doings, as you've wonderfully written out, they're late to market with Xe which seems a bit naff based on leaks.


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post #26 of 30 (permalink) Old 07-31-2020, 07:01 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Liranan View Post
We've been hearing this for years and yet it hasn't come to pass. For ARM to compete against x86 their CPU's will need to become huge and will consume just as much power as x86, thus apart from mobile and servers x86 will continue to dominate. Currently the fastest super computer is ARM, followed by IBM.

IBM have produced amazing chips for the past decade and yet they haven't been able to dominate on the desktop because they lack instruction sets, ARM has the same problem and have an uphill battle against AMD and Intel.
Microsoft controls x86 with Windows. It would be a big mistake if they push ARM heavily because they would give Apple the lead. As long as Microsoft works with AMD/Intel to keep x86 going in Windows it will all be fine.

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post #27 of 30 (permalink) Old 07-31-2020, 12:10 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by WannaBeOCer View Post
You're argument is hilarious, we've had more threads from Intel since 2010 due to SMT compared to AMD's Bulldozer. The lack of multi-threading in consumer apps is due to lazy/greedy developers which is the reason AMD x86_64 even exist. ARM is the future of computing, x86 semiconductor will need to find ways to compete to stay relevant.

Intel is implementing AVX-512 to compete with ARM chips that have dedicated AI hardware. It's just a matter of time before AMD implements similar instructions.
So what comes first - the hardware technological improvements, or the developer code improvements? I'd figure the hardware first. For most of the mainstream for consumer apps, Intel kept the core/thread count relatively unchanged for the better part of the last decade. Had Intel pressed more I think that would have further required developers to adapt to the changing landscape at a faster pace. With a relatively unchanged landscape for the consumer space, what reason does a developer have to improve?

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post #28 of 30 (permalink) Old 07-31-2020, 12:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote: Originally Posted by Sir Beregond View Post
So what comes first - the hardware technological improvements, or the developer code improvements? I'd figure the hardware first. For most of the mainstream for consumer apps, Intel kept the core/thread count relatively unchanged for the better part of the last decade. Had Intel pressed more I think that would have further required developers to adapt to the changing landscape at a faster pace. With a relatively unchanged landscape for the consumer space, what reason does a developer have to improve?
Which consumer apps have changed that you noticed due to consumer Ryzen? DX12/Vulkan were out before Zen was released. It took an OS 29 years before they completely transitioned to 64 bit since the first introduction of 64 bit processors.

That required them to annoy their users to the point they bug the app developers to create a new app.

At this point developers would rather maintain a single app that works across multiple devices. This is the reason why ARM will succeed.

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post #29 of 30 (permalink) Old 07-31-2020, 06:16 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by WannaBeOCer View Post
You're argument is hilarious, we've had more threads from Intel since 2010 due to SMT compared to AMD's Bulldozer. The lack of multi-threading in consumer apps is due to lazy/greedy developers which is the reason AMD x86_64 even exist. ARM is the future of computing, x86 semiconductor will need to find ways to compete to stay relevant.

Intel is implementing AVX-512 to compete with ARM chips that have dedicated AI hardware. It's just a matter of time before AMD implements similar instructions.

Maybe like the dozens of decades scale of future. The future of most of the rest of our lives isn’t AI, and it’s definitely not slow Arm biglittle chips built for phones.

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post #30 of 30 (permalink) Old 07-31-2020, 07:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote: Originally Posted by m4fox90 View Post
Maybe like the dozens of decades scale of future. The future of most of the rest of our lives isn’t AI, and it’s definitely not slow Arm biglittle chips built for phones.
Decades? We've been interacting with AI for years now from Face ID to camera apps for postproduction editing, autonomous cars, AR/VR are some examples that many interact with daily. Game engines have had machine learning toolkits that assist them with game creation for about ~3 years now. Adobe added an AI called Senei back in 2016 and other renders use OptiX/ProRender for AI-denoising. All the next generations consoles are going to have an AI that reconstructions images.

These inference engines that Intel and other ARM SoCs added use significantly less power to accomplish tasks compared to CPU cores. We just have to wait to see what else developers come up with.

https://www.khronos.org/assets/uploa...RAPH-Jul19.pdf

https://news.xbox.com/en-us/2020/03/...es-x-glossary/

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DirectML – Xbox Series X supports Machine Learning for games with DirectML, a component of DirectX. DirectML leverages unprecedented hardware performance in a console, benefiting from over 24 TFLOPS of 16-bit float performance and over 97 TOPS (trillion operations per second) of 4-bit integer performance on Xbox Series X. Machine Learning can improve a wide range of areas, such as making NPCs much smarter, providing vastly more lifelike animation, and greatly improving visual quality.
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