[Various] Ashes of the Singularity DX12 Benchmarks - Page 119 - Overclock.net - An Overclocking Community

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[Various] Ashes of the Singularity DX12 Benchmarks

 
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post #1181 of 2682 (permalink) Old 08-28-2015, 06:39 PM
Hey I get one of these!
 
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Originally Posted by Mahigan View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post

Some incorrect math in there.

990FX stock HT clock is 2.6Ghz but can on some motherboards be overclocked to ~3Ghz. They are not stock clocked at 3.2Ghz. They are also 16-bit links in each direction, not 32-bit. 10.4GB/s unidirectional.

PCI-e 2.0 is 500MB/s/lane pre-encode. That's 8GB/s pre-encoded on an x16, and 6.4GB/s post encode (8/10 encode rate). PCI-e 3.0 is 1GB/s per lane and 128/130 encode rate for just under 16GB/s.

The 990FX board with 3.0 adds a PLX chip on top of that. It takes 32 lanes of 2.0 and splits them into either x16 or x8/x8 of 3.0, including the encoding changes. Hance the latency.

Well if anyone did the math incorrectly it would be AMD. I took the 6.4 GT/s 990FX shot from their PR material. Based on Hardware secrets information, I simply did a 6.4*2 for 12.8 GB/s. If the boards do only function at 2600MHz, rather than 3200MHz according to the PR material, then I am not sure why they would have placed this slide in their information. It would therefore appear to be rather dishonest on their part.

They do use 3.2Ghz HT. Just not on 990FX. More of a server thing.

Just correcting some variables in your equations. Had to do all this math before for other reasons, it helps to have correct numbers, and I have quite a bit of experience with the chipset.

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post #1182 of 2682 (permalink) Old 08-28-2015, 07:34 PM
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While I agree with you that overclocking and switching out reference coolers is something some of us do, the majority of the market does not. Reviewers generally test reference cards first. To establish their performance as recommended by the manufacturer moving onto overclocking and other factors later on in the review cycle (reviewing individual factory overclocked products as well). Overclocking, though something which is amusing (I often run my 290x's at 1,250MHz each) and can yield considerable results, is not based on the recommended manufacturer settings.

I acknowledge your point, but given that overlocking returns vary, one cannot use overclocked cards in order to give the majority of consumers an idea of the performance they can expect.

I understand what you're saying, but I was attempting to explain the results people were seeing in the reviews they were reading about the Ashes of the Singularity DX12 benchmark. The reviewers weren't using overclocked cards. Therefore explaining what caused the performance levels people were seeing is what I did.

As for going forward. I cannot factor overclocked cards for the reasons I mentioned prior in this post. You just cannot predict, with any degree of certainty, what overclock a user will achieve. Therefore it is far more prudent to go by the manufacturers recommended settings. That means quoting nVIDIA and AMD. They designed their GPUs with certain clock speeds in mind. Those are the clock speeds upon which one ought to recommend a product. You can mention one card has a propensity to overclock higher than another, as reviewers do, but you can't promise a degree of performance based on how well your particular card overclocks.

One thing is for certain, I would have liked to see pcgameshardware test those factory overclocked cards at the recommended benchmark settings rather than attempt to derive a particular result. It would have added to the discussion, rather than render their results unusable..
I apologize if it came across that way, but I wasn't talking about altering the cards or even actually overclocking (my 980 Ti G1 for instance literally comes out of the box as is doing 1367-1380 MHz, no personal OC applied). I mean custom models by the AIB partners like the G1 Gaming, ACX, Strix, Tri-X/Vapor-X, etc. that come out of the factory with significantly higher clock speeds (about +150 MHz), coolers to maintain them, and full-fledged warranties (legal guarantees of stability and longevity at those speeds). Going by the number of reviews per model on Newegg, custom models seem to be the majority of these.

From the perspective of any consumer, there's no reason to fear the custom models whatsoever. Sometimes, they're the only models available (initially including the market-dominating GTX 970, the R9 Fury, and the R9 390/X).

High clocks really are guaranteed with Maxwell even for the non-overclocking consumer if they pick the right model. Which is of course different from explaining results with a reference one and I agree with you on the rest of your post.

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post #1183 of 2682 (permalink) Old 08-28-2015, 08:42 PM
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High clocks really are guaranteed with Maxwell even for the non-overclocking consumer if they pick the right model. Which is of course different from explaining results with a reference one and I agree with you on the rest of your post.

High clocks are never guaranteed. In fact anything overclockrd is not guaranteed. It doesn't matter how many cards have oc pasted a certain point. The next one someone buys may not oc even a little. Poor oc cards can easily be sold for a loss and replaced with another. It is similar to playing the lottery.

Me, I oc as much as I can get then I'm happy with whatever that is. A card that oc more isn't worth the loss of price trying to get it. I'd be better off just going sli if I really need the extra boost. That way I'd get guaranteed improvements.

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post #1184 of 2682 (permalink) Old 08-29-2015, 03:01 AM
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The Dx12 update for ARK Survival Evolved was delayed due to driver problems, it should be done sometime next week.

I'm looking forward to seeing who comes out on top in this title, lets see if Dx12 actually gives Nvidia a boost this time.

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post #1185 of 2682 (permalink) Old 08-29-2015, 03:23 AM
 
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Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
I don't think it is CPU related.

PontiacGTX shared this link with me and I believe he is onto something: http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/everything-you-need-to-know-about-the-hypertransport-bus/4/
Now granted the AMD 990FX uses a 3200MHz HT 3.1 link which results in 6,400 MT/s or 12,800 MB/s now look at the schematic below:


The AMD FX Processor communicates with the 990FX Northbridge at 12.8GB/s which talks to the PCIe 2.0 ports at 16GB/s. Therefore, for all intents and purposes, the AMD FX Processor talks to the Graphics card at 12.8GB/s, even if the Graphics card is running on a PCIe 2.0 x16 port.
Now we know that the a PCIe 2.0 x8 slot (8 GB/s) bottlenecks an AMD R9 290 under Ashes of the Singularity. Therefore the culprit for poor AMD performance could very well be the Hypertransport Link.

Take Battlefield 4, it's a DX11 title that is heavy on draw calls (for a DX11 game):

PCIe 2.0 x8 is saturated already (8 GB/s). Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Now imagine having all those CPU cores, now available in DX12, making draw calls ontop of the textures etc travelling over the bus? For an AMD system, this is further compounded by the slow HT 3.1 link (12.8GB/s) and that's in the best case scenario (990/FX chipset). If you're using a 970 chipset, you're knocked down to HT 3.0 or 10.4 GB/s. The 3D Mark Overhead API test isn't sending textures either (or any other heavy command), it's only sending draw calls. So it really wouldn't show up on that test.

Again... just a theory.
Can you please elucidate the part about 290 with direct pointers? I cannot distinguish whether there has been a prior 290 example that I missed, or gtx 980 implies the a similar phenomenon.
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post #1186 of 2682 (permalink) Old 08-29-2015, 05:06 AM
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The Dx12 update for ARK Survival Evolved was delayed due to driver problems, it should be done sometime next week.

I'm looking forward to seeing who comes out on top in this title, lets see if Dx12 actually gives Nvidia a boost this time.

Its very simple. As mahigan explained that AMD has advantages in DX12.
- API overhead (no more CPu bottleneck at 1080P)
- Better parallelism
- async shaders

NVIDIA will always be better at tessellation on DX9, DX11 or DX12. Tessellation take huge perf. on rasterizer efficiency - with better tessellation and 50% more ROPs NVIDIA has huge advantages.
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post #1187 of 2682 (permalink) Old 08-29-2015, 05:09 AM
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Yes... very good point.


What about other games like GTA V, Watchdogs, AC:Unity which are also very high on drawcalls, yet you can see big difference between FX 4300 and FX 8350.
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post #1188 of 2682 (permalink) Old 08-29-2015, 05:26 AM
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Its very simple. As mahigan explained that AMD has advantages in DX12.
- API overhead (no more CPu bottleneck at 1080P)
- Better parallelism
- async shaders

NVIDIA will always be better at tessellation on DX9, DX11 or DX12. Tessellation take huge perf. on rasterizer efficiency - with better tessellation and 50% more ROPs NVIDIA has huge advantages.

I think you quoted the wrong post?

As far as Mahigans theory goes, well.. I won't use the word debunked, but people on the more tech savvy forums disagree with his reasoning. The consensus seems to be that the biggest differences will come from how the game is programmed, not as simple as X is better than Y.

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post #1189 of 2682 (permalink) Old 08-29-2015, 05:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Themisseble View Post

Its very simple. As mahigan explained that AMD has advantages in DX12.
- API overhead (no more CPu bottleneck at 1080P)
- Better parallelism
- async shaders

NVIDIA will always be better at tessellation on DX9, DX11 or DX12. Tessellation take huge perf. on rasterizer efficiency - with better tessellation and 50% more ROPs NVIDIA has huge advantages.

You will have API overhead, but to a lower extant. You can see in the AoS benchmark (which is not a rule ofcourse)
Parallelism is better, but the work is not equally shared by all cores, yet, so faster cores still have the upper hand in many cases, and Intel cores are way faster in terms of IPC
ACE - indeed. The Maxwell II has something similar, but more limited (only 2) and I'm not sure how well it is implemented vs AMD ACE
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post #1190 of 2682 (permalink) Old 08-29-2015, 05:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Themisseble View Post

Its very simple. As mahigan explained that AMD has advantages in DX12.
- API overhead (no more CPu bottleneck at 1080P)
- Better parallelism
- async shaders

NVIDIA will always be better at tessellation on DX9, DX11 or DX12. Tessellation take huge perf. on rasterizer efficiency - with better tessellation and 50% more ROPs NVIDIA has huge advantages.

You will have API overhead, but to a lower extant. You can see in the AoS benchmark (which is not a rule ofcourse)
Quote:
Originally Posted by GorillaSceptre View Post

I think you quoted the wrong post?

As far as Mahigans theory goes, well.. I won't use the word debunked, but people on the more tech savvy forums disagree with his reasoning. The consensus seems to be that the biggest differences will come from how the game is programmed, not as simple as X is better than Y.

Agreed about the second point. Even in DX11 we can see games that are considered "heavy" without a CPU limitation. Even BF4 and Crysis 3, at least on 1080p (link)
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