[Phoronix]Quake 2 now has real-time path tracing with Vulkan - Page 4 - Overclock.net - An Overclocking Community

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[Phoronix]Quake 2 now has real-time path tracing with Vulkan

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post #31 of 46 (permalink) Old 01-24-2019, 12:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote: Originally Posted by MonarchX View Post
So what exactly does Q2 demo prove? We all knew that ray/path was possible... It existed for a while in cinema motion pictures... Does this demo somehow prove that RTX cards can render games with modern polygon count, shader, texture resolution, streaming technology, while fully utilizing true path/ray tracing and provide at least 30fps at 1080p? No way in hell... The only thing that this proves is that ray tracing is becoming a goal. It's now something that developers and engineers are trying to push further, perhaps at faster\higher rate than before, but that's about it... It's a good thing, especially if AMD succeeds at competing with NVidia with their own ray tracing technology.

What are the main differences between RTX partial ray tracing vs. full ray tracing vs. path tracing? Is NVidia's AI technology something that can help ray tracing become a viable option for in-game lighting more so than whatever else was necessary to make it a reality (raw GPU power) ?
It's a proof of concept. Like I said, RTX is a gimmick in this generation. It draws too much horsepower for anyone to use it. But it's a very real start, something tangible to show off what's possible in future offerings. Of course NVIDIA is stupidly marketing this. Like everything about this launch is was rushed out when there was no need to do so, at least with the information made public so far. When NVIDIA can start with TSMCs 7nm I expect it will have an effect on the landscape, but evolutionary instead of revolutionary. Ten years ago we had a bunch of projects that ultimately amounted to nothing on the consumer market. Ten years from now there's a chance full ray tracing will be commonplace, and it will be in 4K.

I calculated the odds of this succeeding versus the odds I was doing something incredibly stupid... and I went ahead anyway.

If it's not coming out for the PC, it's dead to me.
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post #32 of 46 (permalink) Old 01-24-2019, 04:56 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by MonarchX View Post
So what exactly does Q2 demo prove? We all knew that ray/path was possible... It existed for a while in cinema motion pictures...
Which isn't at all real-time.
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post #33 of 46 (permalink) Old 01-24-2019, 09:21 AM
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cryengine 3 does this same thing and looks nearly the same for a 1/100th the performance cost. this whole ray tracing thing seems like a gimmick from nvidia to sell overpriced graphics cards. i barely even noticed a difference for battlefield 5 but saw the framerate get cut in half.

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post #34 of 46 (permalink) Old 01-24-2019, 09:42 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Jarhead View Post
It's a proof of concept. Like I said, RTX is a gimmick in this generation. It draws too much horsepower for anyone to use it. But it's a very real start, something tangible to show off what's possible in future offerings. Of course NVIDIA is stupidly marketing this. Like everything about this launch is was rushed out when there was no need to do so, at least with the information made public so far. When NVIDIA can start with TSMCs 7nm I expect it will have an effect on the landscape, but evolutionary instead of revolutionary. Ten years ago we had a bunch of projects that ultimately amounted to nothing on the consumer market. Ten years from now there's a chance full ray tracing will be commonplace, and it will be in 4K.
There was a reason to rush it, they needed to come up with a real gaming use for existing hardware otherwise they'd need to lazer off the extra bits to make gaming GPUs and count the piece on the cutting room floor as a loss. This way people can justify spending $1300 on a $700 card...and they do.

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post #35 of 46 (permalink) Old 01-24-2019, 12:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote: Originally Posted by white owl View Post
There was a reason to rush it, they needed to come up with a real gaming use for existing hardware otherwise they'd need to lazer off the extra bits to make gaming GPUs and count the piece on the cutting room floor as a loss. This way people can justify spending $1300 on a $700 card...and they do.
You're missing the point. This card never should have launched without at least five games that have RTX bolted on at launch. Instead there is one whole game that uses it a few months after launch. And one fan project for a 25 year old game that NVIDIA had nothing to do with. And their competition from AMD is a $700 Blender workstation-card that also plays games with it's pricey extra HBM2. NVIDIA had zero reason to launch this thing when they did. They could have waited at least for DICE to get Battlefield 5 actually working. If it were me I would be on the phone to every major publisher greasing the skids to get them to do the Ray Tracing bolt-on to any game they have that's not older than five years. But instead we have a bunch of fans doing the bolt-on for Quake 2, a video game that is old enough to buy handguns and whisky here in the states. It's completely pathetic. This is incompetence that you thought was only possible from the Star Wars franchise.

Think about it, when AMD wanted to show off, they said "here's this thing called Vulkan, and here's two of our over-priced not really popular Vega 56cards, and guess what? They can run a framerate that maxes out any 4K monitor refresh rate on the market in this game you've never heard of and won't play called Strange Brigade. And heare's five other games running Vulkan and we're KILLING IT. " And I'm not holding this up as competence, because, Strange Brigade? Seriously? That's your killer app? But this just regular incompetence. NVIDIA looked over and said "here, hold my beer."

I calculated the odds of this succeeding versus the odds I was doing something incredibly stupid... and I went ahead anyway.

If it's not coming out for the PC, it's dead to me.

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post #36 of 46 (permalink) Old 01-24-2019, 12:42 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Jarhead View Post
You're missing the point. This card never should have launched without at least five games that have RTX bolted on at launch. Instead there is one whole game that uses it a few months after launch. And one fan project for a 25 year old game that NVIDIA had nothing to do with. And their competition from AMD is a $700 Blender workstation-card that also plays games with it's pricey extra HBM2. NVIDIA had zero reason to launch this thing when they did. They could have waited at least for DICE to get Battlefield 5 actually working. If it were me I would be on the phone to every major publisher greasing the skids to get them to do the Ray Tracing bolt-on to any game they have that's not older than five years. But instead we have a bunch of fans doing the bolt-on for Quake 2, a video game that is old enough to buy handguns and whisky here in the states. It's completely pathetic. This is incompetence that you thought was only possible from the Star Wars franchise.
When was that ever the case with a DirectX release where we had 5+ titles at launch? DirectX 12 was released July 29, 2015 and we only have around 40 titles while DxR support wasn't released until the re-release of 1809 November 13, 2018 and Battlefield V was released the 9th.

We've always had cards that were released before the API was released. RTX is a platform with multiple SDKs and APIs. Battlefield V is using DxR which uses the enhanced DxR libraries for RTX cards.

DxR was always about a hybrid implementation and the RTX 2080 Ti runs Battlefield V at 1440p with DxR enabled.

https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/dir...tx-raytracing/

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DXR will initially be used to supplement current rendering techniques such as screen space reflections, for example, to fill in data from geometry that’s either occluded or off-screen.  This will lead to a material increase in visual quality for these effects in the near future.  Over the next several years, however, we expect an increase in utilization of DXR for techniques that are simply impractical for rasterization, such as true global illumination.  Eventually, raytracing may completely replace rasterization as the standard algorithm for rendering 3D scenes.  That said, until everyone has a light-field display on their desk, rasterization will continue to be an excellent match for the common case of rendering content to a flat grid of square pixels, supplemented by raytracing for true 3D effects.

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post #37 of 46 (permalink) Old 01-24-2019, 03:21 PM
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Been playing around with the Quake demo on my RTX 2080 the last few days.

Question. Are the RTX's Tensor cores actually being utilized here, the same as they are in something like Port Royal? Or is there some kind of "trickery" going on to get the game running on the RTX cards?

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post #38 of 46 (permalink) Old 01-24-2019, 03:29 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by CelticGamer View Post
Been playing around with the Quake demo on my RTX 2080 the last few days.

Question. Are the RTX's Tensor cores actually being utilized here, the same as they are in something like Port Royal? Or is there some kind of "trickery" going on to get the game running on the RTX cards?
Tensor cores aren't being used in Port Royal. RT cores are being used in Port Royal. You can tell by the Titan V vs Titan RTX performance in Port Royal. Port Royal is using Post-AA filter to denoise.

RT cores are being used for the path tracing while the Tensor cores are being used as an AI-accelerated denoiser. There isn't any trickery, Ray Tracing causes noise and they created an AI to denoise.

http://brechpunkt.de/q2vkpt/

Edit: DxR can use DirectML to denoise. Which seems like AMD will be using for their denoising.

https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/dir...r-2018-update/

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ML techniques such as denoising and super-resolution will allow hardware to achieve impressive raytraced effects with fewer rays per pixel. We expect DirectML to play a large role in making raytracing more mainstream

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post #39 of 46 (permalink) Old 01-24-2019, 05:22 PM
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WTH happened to all the post styling buttons? OCN's "Advanced" post is freaking empty. Where did all the formatting tools go???

Wiki says real-time ray-tracing was done a whiiile back:
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The first implementation of a "real-time" ray-tracer was the LINKS-1 Computer Graphics System built in 1982 at Osaka University's School of Engineering, by professors Ohmura Kouichi, Shirakawa Isao and Kawata Toru with 50 students.[citation needed] It was a massively parallel processing computer system with 514 microprocessors (257 Zilog Z8001's and 257 iAPX 86's), used for rendering realistic 3D computer graphics with high-speed ray tracing. According to the Information Processing Society of Japan: "The core of 3D image rendering is calculating the luminance of each pixel making up a rendered surface from the given viewpoint, light source, and object position. The LINKS-1 system was developed to realize an image rendering methodology in which each pixel could be parallel processed independently using ray tracing. By developing a new software methodology specifically for high-speed image rendering, LINKS-1 was able to rapidly render highly realistic images." It was "used to create the world's first 3D planetarium-like video of the entire heavens that was made completely with computer graphics. The video was presented at the Fujitsu pavilion at the 1985 International Exposition in Tsukuba."[12] The LINKS-1 was the world's most powerful computer at the time, as of 1984.[13]

The earliest public record of "real-time" ray tracing with interactive rendering (i.e., updates greater than a frame per second) was credited at the 2005 SIGGRAPH computer graphics conference as being the REMRT/RT tools developed in 1986 by Mike Muuss for the BRL-CAD solid modeling system. Initially published in 1987 at USENIX, the BRL-CAD ray-tracer was an early implementation of a parallel network distributed ray-tracing system that achieved several frames per second in rendering performance.[14] This performance was attained by means of the highly optimized yet platform independent LIBRT ray-tracing engine in BRL-CAD and by using solid implicit CSG geometry on several shared memory parallel machines over a commodity network. BRL-CAD's ray-tracer, including the REMRT/RT tools, continue to be available and developed today as Open source software.[15]

Since then, there have been considerable efforts and research towards implementing ray tracing in real time speeds for a variety of purposes on stand-alone desktop configurations. These purposes include interactive 3D graphics applications such as demoscene productions, computer and video games, and image rendering. Some real-time software 3D engines based on ray tracing have been developed by hobbyist demo programmers since the late 1990s.[16]

The OpenRT project includes a highly optimized software core for ray tracing along with an OpenGL-like API in order to offer an alternative to the current rasterisation based approach for interactive 3D graphics. Ray tracing hardware, such as the experimental Ray Processing Unit developed at the Saarland University, has been designed to accelerate some of the computationally intensive operations of ray tracing. On March 16, 2007, the University of Saarland revealed an implementation of a high-performance ray tracing engine that allowed computer games to be rendered via ray tracing without intensive resource usage.[17]

On June 12, 2008 Intel demonstrated a special version of Enemy Territory: Quake Wars, titled Quake Wars: Ray Traced, using ray tracing for rendering, running in basic HD (720p) resolution. ETQW operated at 14-29 frames per second. The demonstration ran on a 16-core (4 socket, 4 core) Xeon Tigerton system running at 2.93 GHz.[18]

At SIGGRAPH 2009, Nvidia announced OptiX, a free API for real-time ray tracing on Nvidia GPUs. The API exposes seven programmable entry points within the ray tracing pipeline, allowing for custom cameras, ray-primitive intersections, shaders, shadowing, etc. This flexibility enables bidirectional path tracing, Metropolis light transport, and many other rendering algorithms that cannot be implemented with tail recursion.[19] Nvidia has shipped over 350,000,000 OptiX capable GPUs as of April 2013. OptiX-based renderers are used in Adobe AfterEffects, Bunkspeed Shot, Autodesk Maya, 3ds max, and many other renderers.

AMD enabled real-time ray-tracing on Vega graphics cards through GPUOpen Radeon ProRender. [20] Nvidia has announced real-time ray-tracing on their Quadro RTX workstation graphics cards. The Nvidia GeForce 20 series of video cards have real-time ray tracing capabilities.

Imagination Technologies offers a free API called OpenRL which accelerates tail recursive ray tracing-based rendering algorithms and, together with their proprietary ray tracing hardware, works with Autodesk Maya to provide what 3D World calls "real-time raytracing to the everyday artist".[21]

In 2014, a demo of the PlayStation 4 video game The Tomorrow Children, developed by Q-Games and SIE Japan Studio, demonstrated new lighting techniques developed by Q-Games, notably cascaded voxel cone ray tracing, which simulates lighting in real-time and uses more realistic reflections rather than screen space reflections.[22]

The upcoming game MechWarrior 5: Mercenaries is stated to feature ray tracing. As of 2018, the option is admitted to be a strain even on the highest-end graphic cards.[23]

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post #40 of 46 (permalink) Old 01-24-2019, 05:25 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by white owl View Post
When you compare RTX to modern lighting effects in games it's almost impossible to tell which is best.
I didn't know TW3 had crappy lighting. The game looked great to me. I guess this is where we are though...RTX at 30fps is the new standard and anything that isn't simulating light paths is trash.
people like to say the lighting in witcher 3 is so bad they had to add a spell to deal with it
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