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[GoL]Steam Play versus Linux Version, a little performance comparison and more thoughts

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post #11 of 29 (permalink) Old 01-23-2019, 06:34 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by skupples View Post
as a some what related side note.

I found out ESO has a macintosh client the other day & realized how impressive that actually is, no matter what anyone thinks of the game itself. They've cemented themselves into a TINY list which will earn them money for many moons to come based on that little factor.
It's not a tiny list. There are 51,494 games on steam. 18,782 are MacOS compatible and 11,967 are Linux compatible.

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post #12 of 29 (permalink) Old 01-24-2019, 01:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote: Originally Posted by UltraMega View Post
There's really only two platforms here... xbox, which is tuned to work well with DX as an API so devs can just use DX with xbox and get good console results, so they don't have to do much to retune it for windows, if any... and that just leaves PlayStation which has it's own API that is superior to vulkan (for playstation at least). No dev would use vulkan on PS over the PS APIs that sony provides them. At this point its safe to assume that devs are pretty comfortable with the two APIs.
The Playstation 4 is running FreeBSD with a platform specific version of OpenGL. All things being equal, even on a streamlined platform Vulkan runs lower level and thus will out preform openGL. I guaranty the next XBONE will be running DX12 because the current one already is, albeit in limited fashion, and DX12 is another lower level API. The next PeasantStation will have to run Vulkan just to be competitive because OGL ain't. And besides, you may have noticed that AMD hardware has an edge in Vulkan benchmarks compared to NVIDIA up until very recently, and AMD is providing the chip.

Quote: Originally Posted by UltraMega View Post
Again, nothing against vulkan for gaming on Linux, I just think it's a huge waste of time for valve to get so invested in gaming on Linux after their big steam OS push failed so hard. If devs that actually make games want to use it, I'm all for it though realistically I don't see it gaining a lot of traction. Vulkan will most likely remain a rarely used API. Unifying an API to work on so many different platforms is just not something I expect to see good results from with an open source team. I definitely appreciate the reasoning behind it, just don't see it working out. It's asking too much for a pro-bono API.
Linux runs a small thing you may have interacted with called THE INFRASTRUCTURE. And now internet enabled Crockpots(not kidding). Don't underestimate the results possible when financial interests converge.

Quote: Originally Posted by JackCY View Post
In other words you're better off running Windows or a Windows version over Wine etc. than straight up native Linux.
No, it means that a fair number of Linux native ports are half-assed. After all, most of them are actually WINEbottles bundled together into something that Steam can use. On the other hand, a few things mentioned in the comments on the original article are that several WinXP games seem to run better in WINE on Linux than they do on WIndows10. Likewise, the point of the article is that Proton has revealed a few cases where the Linux port was farted out and the result is again the Windows version runs better through DXVK than the native port which is almost always opengl. But it goes both ways, like in CITIES: SKYLINES the native Linux version runs noticeably smoother, but eats up a bit more system ram in the process.

All of this was expected. Linux is less than 1% of Steam. Thank's to Apple's idiocy with METAL, among lots of other issues, I'm rather hopeful that we'll be picking up some disenchanted Apple cultists for Team Penguin, combined with those Windows refugees that can escape now that Valve has opened the door. The Year of the Linuux Desktop you keep hearing about is the year we overtake Apple, and that could be as little as five years by my count. Maybe closer to ten, but you never know, Microsoft might step up the douchbaggery.

I calculated the odds of this succeeding versus the odds I was doing something incredibly stupid... and I went ahead anyway.

If it's not coming out for the PC, it's dead to me.

Last edited by Jarhead; 01-24-2019 at 01:19 AM.
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post #13 of 29 (permalink) Old 01-24-2019, 02:31 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Jarhead View Post
The Playstation 4 is running FreeBSD with a platform specific version of OpenGL. All things being equal, even on a streamlined platform Vulkan runs lower level and thus will out preform openGL. I guaranty the next XBONE will be running DX12 because the current one already is, albeit in limited fashion, and DX12 is another lower level API. The next PeasantStation will have to run Vulkan just to be competitive because OGL ain't. And besides, you may have noticed that AMD hardware has an edge in Vulkan benchmarks compared to NVIDIA up until very recently, and AMD is providing the chip.
If PS4 uses OpenGL, how do you think PS4 games support Async shaders?



PS4 has two APIs, one is GNM which is low level, and high level API named GNMX(which is the one similar to OpenGL/DX11 and probably the one you are talking about). Vulkan is based on AMD Mantle which is advertised to be low level "console-style" API. So while PS5 might have API somewhat similar to Vulkan for supporting latest hardware feature set, it doesn't need it for being low level API since consoles always had their own "low level" API.
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post #14 of 29 (permalink) Old 01-24-2019, 03:51 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Avonosac View Post
Mantel became Vulkan, it didn't fail.. I just don't understand the reasoning here.
Mental as mental failed.
AMD tried to push it, and it did fail. It was an "open sourced" which was never open, very hardware specific almost completely locked to work only with AMD, that never showed real benefits and it was a very big hit and miss.

AMD gave up and gave it to khronos, so people from other companies would be able to figure it out from where AMD failed to make it work, and actually to make it real open source, not just by name. It took them a year for even to get a first working version, and almost another year for actual support and games to pop up.

While vulkan's ancestral birth came from mental, it is not just "became vulkan". It took engineers from several companies, to actually make vulkan what it is today, and not just a failed attempt to lock games to AMD.


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post #15 of 29 (permalink) Old 01-24-2019, 04:35 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Defoler View Post
Mental as mental faile"d.
AMD tried to push it, and it did fail. It was an "open sourced" which was never open, very hardware specific almost completely locked to work only with AMD, that never showed real benefits and it was a very big hit and miss.

AMD gave up and gave it to khronos, so people from other companies would be able to figure it out from where AMD failed to make it work, and actually to make it real open source, not just by name. It took them a year for even to get a first working version, and almost another year for actual support and games to pop up.

While vulkan's ancestral birth came from mental, it is not just "became vulkan". It took engineers from several companies, to actually make vulkan what it is today, and not just a failed attempt to lock games to AMD.
BTW, AMD's former API is called "Mantel". "Mental" designates some crazy things, like Apple's kit pricing

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post #16 of 29 (permalink) Old 01-24-2019, 04:37 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by termathor View Post
BTW, AMD's former API is called "Mantel". "Mental" designates some crazy things, like Apple's kit pricing

It's actually Mantle.

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post #17 of 29 (permalink) Old 01-24-2019, 04:42 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Jarhead View Post
All of this was expected. Linux is less than 1% of Steam. Thank's to Apple's idiocy with METAL, among lots of other issues, I'm rather hopeful that we'll be picking up some disenchanted Apple cultists for Team Penguin, combined with those Windows refugees that can escape now that Valve has opened the door. The Year of the Linuux Desktop you keep hearing about is the year we overtake Apple, and that could be as little as five years by my count. Maybe closer to ten, but you never know, Microsoft might step up the douchbaggery.
I own 2 Macbooks, been playing Borderlands 2 on the higher end one, and I can say that no-one in their right mind, today, will ever buy a Macbook for playing ! For the last 5 years, all Macbooks have been hardware from 4 years back, sold 4 times the equivalent than from the laptop market.
They've gone mad in the pricing dept, which is already shown by their recent laughable explanation of under-performance in revenue ...

I now play on win7/SteamOS dual-boot. Any port to Team Penguin available, I switch the game from win7 to SteamOS.
The only issue of Linux is *many* people think it is too complex, while actually, fixing Win10 mishaps (telemetry, defective patches (oct. 2018 anyone ?) is WAY more complex than going SteamOS.
For SteamOS, the most complex was to write a USB bootable image. Rest was self explanatory ... Never had to fix anything for 3.5 years now ...

As for Vulkan, performance and multi-platform will kill off the other APIs, that is for sure. It's basic economics.

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post #18 of 29 (permalink) Old 01-24-2019, 07:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote: Originally Posted by termathor View Post
I own 2 Macbooks, been playing Borderlands 2 on the higher end one, and I can say that no-one in their right mind, today, will ever buy a Macbook for playing ! For the last 5 years, all Macbooks have been hardware from 4 years back, sold 4 times the equivalent than from the laptop market.
They've gone mad in the pricing dept, which is already shown by their recent laughable explanation of under-performance in revenue ...

I now play on win7/SteamOS dual-boot. Any port to Team Penguin available, I switch the game from win7 to SteamOS.
The only issue of Linux is *many* people think it is too complex, while actually, fixing Win10 mishaps (telemetry, defective patches (oct. 2018 anyone ?) is WAY more complex than going SteamOS.
For SteamOS, the most complex was to write a USB bootable image. Rest was self explanatory ... Never had to fix anything for 3.5 years now ...

As for Vulkan, performance and multi-platform will kill off the other APIs, that is for sure. It's basic economics.
I don't know about killing off other APIs. Microsoft has proven rather hard to kill over the years. It's only through their abuse of their own userbase over the years that has provided the drive for an alternative to it, and the reason that we're in position to begin carving off larger and larger numbers of people. But they're still the big boy, and Microsoft is too embedded into the world to simply go under and vanish like Commodore or DIgital did back in the 80's/90's. Microsoft will just keep doing what it's doing. Apple is going to self destruct without Steve Jobs to hold everything together.

I calculated the odds of this succeeding versus the odds I was doing something incredibly stupid... and I went ahead anyway.

If it's not coming out for the PC, it's dead to me.
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post #19 of 29 (permalink) Old 01-24-2019, 07:52 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by UltraMega View Post
Your missing something here when you start talking about consoles. Playstation 4 could use vulkan right now if there was any benefit to it, but consoles games will use an API like dx or Vulcan as little as possible. If API usage goes up for consoles, it would be a step backwards. APIs like this are good for PC because all PCs are a little different, but not with consoles.

As far as Windows goes, I've got nothing against it but I doubt it will see a high adoption rate. Devs can't rely on support for open source software like vulkan and its my understanding that its already lagging behind dx12 in terms of its capabilities. Vulkan is just mantel 2.0 and mantel didn't last long.

Also worth noting that this is only working for a less than 30 games. I have nothing against gaming on Linux, but valve needs to give it a rest already. Steam OS failed and now they're just beating a dead horse. If they're so scared of the windows store, why not just lower the cut they take from devs or offer a subscription service like Microsoft is already doing? They wont innovate but they think they can push people into using a different OS instead.. it's just sad to see valve making so many weird moves and not doing anything positive for gaming beyond maintaining steam and occasionally doing something weird for an extreme niche of the market, like this.
It has been a long time sense games ran bare metal on home consoles. Given the ubiquitousness of graphics and x86, it makes more sense than ever to use an API like vulkan.
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post #20 of 29 (permalink) Old 01-24-2019, 10:28 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by UltraMega View Post
Did Valves push for Linux really have ANY impact on Microsoft's decision making? I doubt it.
I don't doubt it at all. Microsoft didn't care much for PC Gaming until Valve started making moves to 'migrate' PC Gaming to Linux should they forget. Linux distros already wrestled much of the server and B2B market away from Microsoft. This would have been another blow. Microsoft can't afford to be lazy anymore, Every part of its ventures are under heavy competition now.
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