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[Anandtech]Microsoft brings DX12 to Windows 7

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post #81 of 93 (permalink) Old 03-18-2019, 09:10 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by xJumper View Post
So using work programs does not make you an expert at Windows but using social media apps makes you a power user of mobile OS's? That kind of contradicts itself... Using social media and spending your time 24/7 glued to your phone is about the farthest qualifier for being an Android or iOS "super user".

If you cannot mount "/" you are definitively not an Android superuser. See how many people pick up on that one...

I'm curious to see what happens with Win 7 EOL which is scheduled within a year. Enterprise use is still scheduled for another three years after that, will there be some unofficial patch/port of the enterprise updates that home users will be able to use to keep the OS updated?

Is 7 going to go down the XP path where everyone declares that they will ride it out forever and then bails or will it actually have forever hold outs? I'm tempted to believe most people will eventually crack like they did with XP, running an out of date OS is a good way to get owned (then again most people do exactly just this with their Android smartphones) but things might the different this time around.
Small note on the phones deal: even if they want to update, due to the fragmented android system and the idiotic decision to leave it to cell service providers to certify updates (due to verifying compatibility with networks), it often is not up to the user whether they can update their systems unless they go through the process of loading a custom boot loader and flash a custom room incorporating the most recent security updates.

It goes beyond that to the IoT devices as well. We practically have no security, and funny enough, 5G will only make that worse.

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post #82 of 93 (permalink) Old 03-18-2019, 09:22 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by ajc9988 View Post
unless they go through the process of loading a custom boot loader and flash a custom room incorporating the most recent security updates.
Now that would make you a real super user. Once you discover custom roms it makes the average persons phone look like an unprotected adware filled cesspool akin to someone still running XP.

Quote: Originally Posted by ajc9988 View Post
It goes beyond that to the IoT devices as well. We practically have no security, and funny enough, 5G will only make that worse.
That's why I'm very much against IoT, especially in it's current state. Pretty much all of it is running unprotected, un-patched and un-updated without any avenue to fix any of those issues. It makes for a situation ripe for exploitation. The loss of NAT with IPv6 and 5G will make everything fair game for ownage. Bryan Lunduke did a show on how IoT AC units could be used to overload the power grid and how easily they would be to get hacked.

You talk to any of the grand masters of the computer-fu, the old school guys that started it all; they all warn against IoT and how bent over that's gonna leave everyone. When people who know the most about computers use the least amount of them or are against any given thing having a computer while all the "normies" are using everything and anything you know something's up.

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post #83 of 93 (permalink) Old 03-18-2019, 10:22 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by xJumper View Post
Now that would make you a real super user. Once you discover custom roms it makes the average persons phone look like an unprotected adware filled cesspool akin to someone still running XP.



That's why I'm very much against IoT, especially in it's current state. Pretty much all of it is running unprotected, un-patched and un-updated without any avenue to fix any of those issues. It makes for a situation ripe for exploitation. The loss of NAT with IPv6 and 5G will make everything fair game for ownage. Bryan Lunduke did a show on how IoT AC units could be used to overload the power grid and how easily they would be to get hacked.

You talk to any of the grand masters of the computer-fu, the old school guys that started it all; they all warn against IoT and how bent over that's gonna leave everyone. When people who know the most about computers use the least amount of them or are against any given thing having a computer while all the "normies" are using everything and anything you know something's up.
Well corporations are complicit with the insecurity of IoT. Aside from not wanting to spend the money to secure networks, you have the problem of Netflix, Amazon Prime, Google, and others that if you use a VPN or TOR in conjunction with a hardware firewall, they will identify you as a bot and block use of their sites. What this means for average users is that they allow pass through for their firewall without setting up a dual network that can access each other in a limited capacity through a DMZ to allow their IoT to be on a different network than the LAN they use in their home. By doing so, they remove their security for convenience, which those devices, like a Samsung smart fridge, can be owned through an exploit, which then can allow for the exploit of the systems on their LAN that they were trying to secure in the first place. Especially with all the Apache exploits out there (specifically for smart TVs), am I right? LOL.

Hell, look at how many Amazon buckets that aren't even password protected! LOL. If you care about a corporation's security, how do you make such a basic mistake? Especially in light of the speculative execution exploits that have been shown over the past year (and I find the claim that no one discovered it until now when it has been present in chips dating to the early 90s VERY dubious).

And that brings us back to M$ wanting your data, doing keyloggers that contain passwords in a hidden file on your system that is transmitted back to their servers. Do you trust M$ to keep that data secure? I don't. And they have created multifaceted networking schemes that can allow man-in-the-middle attacks, etc. Or a legit opening that can be accessed by others. I could go on, but you seem to get my point.

Security is the only reason I'm using Win 10, and even that requires a lot of modification. Linux is better to a degree, but there is still a lot of work, and the commercial security sector doesn't have much in the way for consumers on that platform (not to say it is completely absent). Linux enjoys an added benefit of a small user base. The majority of attacks are targeted at M$ and Apple due to market share. Going through the trouble to create the virus/malware/keylogger/dialback, etc., for a specific ecosystem is a lot of work, and they are looking for the largest swath of potential systems to attack. With such a small market share, Linux isn't a primary target. That is compounded with the different Linux builds, the different flavors, etc., where an attack may work on one but not others.

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post #84 of 93 (permalink) Old 03-18-2019, 11:04 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by ThrashZone View Post
Hi,
Doubt anyone really cares
Anyone still on win-7 is likely going to linux and what ever gaming goes on it which will be vulkan which by the way works very well on win-7



I care, I have Win 10 at work and Win7 on my home Ryzen system. Dislike Win10 and will stick to 7 because Win 10 has literally no benefits for me so why give them all my personal info and get nothing in return?


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post #85 of 93 (permalink) Old 03-18-2019, 02:10 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by J7SC View Post
Whaaaaat ?! I finally relented a few months back & upgraded one of my machines from Win7 Pro to Win10, solely to get DX12 for 2080 TIs ...all that frustration for ?
Windows 7's DX12 support isn't global, but on a per-game basis.

Not every DX12 title is going to get DX12 support in Windows 7.

Quote: Originally Posted by JackCY View Post
What on earth people love about Win7 I don't understand since even 8.1 was better than 7. And 7 was slower than XP.
It's more about GUI changes and not actual performance why people stick with something they are visually familiar with.
Barring some Spectre mitigations and scheduler changes on some architectures, the actual performance difference is quite negligible between any of these OSes.

Familiarity and level of control are the main reasons for sticking with an older OS.

The only system I have Windows 10 on has Windows 10 solely because I need it for my WMR headset. Otherwise it's not any faster and considerably less convenient than older OSes.

I dread having to install 10 because it takes twice as long to properly configure as 7 and 7 itself takes about ten times as long to setup as a modern Linux distro.

Quote: Originally Posted by tpi2007 View Post
Regarding XP vs 7, it's very difficult to compare both because the former only has a 32-bit version for consumers, the scheduler wasn't optimized for more than two cores, with Vista and later thus performing better on quad cores and beyond, and XP also lacks support for TRIM and AVX.
I've been using XP x64 and Server 2003 R2 x64 since they were released.

XP x64 isn't measurably slower than Windows 7 or 10 on my pre-AVX hex-core/twelve-thread parts in most things...even gaming (API and drivers permitting).

Quote: Originally Posted by white owl View Post
many of the reasons for not wanting to use 10 are totally invalid since it can all be turned off in under 30 seconds.
There is quite a bit that is not easy to turn off or purge.

Anyway, I don't need a reason not to do something, doing nothing is the default. I need a reason to transition to Windows 10. For one of my systems, that reason was a cheap WMR headset.

Even if I liked Windows 10 more than 7 (and I most certainly do not), the hassle of migrating my remaining systems would be a strong disincentive to do so.

Quote: Originally Posted by ThrashZone View Post
I'm sure MS has it's reasons and it's all money based you can be sure of
Market share trumps all. MS would rather people steal Windows 10 or remain on an unsupported earlier version of Windows than sacrifice market share. Forcing people off older OSes will be the fastest way MS could possibly lose market share.

Out of all of my computers that ever had 7 installed, one got 'upgraded' to 10. Three went to Linux.

Quote: Originally Posted by Majin SSJ Eric View Post
I dunno, Win10 has gained a LOT of momentum over the past couple years and it has surpassed Win7 to become the new leader in OS market share. Sure, its still close at the moment, but with Win7's extended support nearing an end I expect Win10 will be the dominant OS on PC very quickly.
Windows 7 and even XP recently gained market share at Windows 10's expense. Windows 10 is going to continue to grow I the long term of course, but mostly from new PC sales.

Those that haven't upgraded from 7 yet aren't likely going to pay to do it now, until they buy a new system.

Quote: Originally Posted by Majin SSJ Eric View Post
Even the most hardcore of Win10 haters will soon have to choose between leaving MS (and all of its vast compatibility advantages) altogether or sucking it up and installing Win10.
End of official support doesn't mean anything other than I have to be more careful with security.

Quote: Originally Posted by tpi2007 View Post
The real problem is one of education. Learning to have a minimum level of computer related understanding is the XXI century equivalent of learning to read.
If text to speech was a thing at the time the printing press was invented, learning to read would still a skill largely reserved for academics.

PCs weren't dominant for long enough before walled-garden mobiles showed up for computer literacy to have reached the mainstream.

Quote: Originally Posted by Diffident View Post
It's funny, people say Linux is too hard, but look at the hoops people jump through just to get Windows to function the way they want and to stop Windows from doing things it shouldn't be doing in the first place.
I've got vastly more experience with Windows (been a Windows power user for almost thirty years) than Linux (have dabbled in it since the late 1990s), but at this point Linux is far and away the easier and more convenient option for most tasks that aren't dependent on gaming or niche MS Office uses.

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post #86 of 93 (permalink) Old 03-18-2019, 07:34 PM
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Windows 10 is still the right choice

Microsoft is porting parts of DX12 to Windows 7 but not the entire code base. There will be some limitations on Windows 7 plus Microsoft is still moving to EOL Windows 7 shortly.

I believe this update is all about Microsoft's renewed gaming focus on the PC again. From looking at all the new code in the Windows 10 19H1 update, there seems to be hints of Xbox integration but at a much higher lever than before (think Xbox games on PC). If that all proofs correct, Microsoft may have bigger ambitions with their next Xbox platform, including possibly playing xbox games on a Windows 10 PC. We will have to wait and see.
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post #87 of 93 (permalink) Old 03-19-2019, 10:18 AM
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So they're running DX12 in a container within the game?

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post #88 of 93 (permalink) Old 03-19-2019, 05:31 PM
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How about the fact that I control the Updates being installed? Or the fact that Virtual PC 2007 does not run under Win8 and later due to changes? Once again, how about the eeping fact that Win8 is a Touch screen OS instead of a Desktop OS - You thought the Fisher Price looks of XP was bad? Win8 and later is even worse.

For those having problem with Win7 installing on new hardware, most of the time it's due to USB 3 since the installer doesn't recognize it. Simply fix is to disable USB 3 mode in the firmware where possible. The real issue is whether the UEFI firmware has the CSM mode available. Means Win7 can install in compatibility mode (bios) instead of pure UEFI as it doesn't fully support it. Recently reinstalled Win7 on my system and discovered that when I disabled the CSM completely so yes, there can be some problems.

The last thing is the Many Lawsuits and possible Antitrust Fines along with FDA and HIPPA fines that MS is going to get hit with due to forcing Win10 upgrades onto some doctors offices. Keep in mind that some of that medical software being used is FDA approved for very specific configurations of Windows and it was not approved for Win10. MS by forcing an upgrade without consent is possibly liable for billions of dollars in FDA fines alone. Take in the Billions for HIPPA violations that occured due to the Forced Upgrade and Data Mininng in Win10 and the Stock Holders are liable to fire the board, which the CEO doesn't care about. Their job is to minimize the impact of many of Balmers decisions in the last 5 years running MS - Yes it's the damn bean counters fault.
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post #89 of 93 (permalink) Old 03-19-2019, 06:10 PM
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I switched...to Ubuntu. Linux itself is a hot mess as always, but gaming is getting there. Now you can install/attempt to play any Windows title that works with Proton, Valve's compatibility tool. It works great for the games I play (same or faster performance than Windows for some titles, slower in others), however there are still quite a few it chokes on. I don't see Linux getting any significant marketshare increase out of Windows 7 EOL though. Not until you can use the system without ever touching the terminal.
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post #90 of 93 (permalink) Old 03-19-2019, 06:22 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by fastturtle View Post
How about the fact that I control the Updates being installed? Or the fact that Virtual PC 2007 does not run under Win8 and later due to changes? Once again, how about the eeping fact that Win8 is a Touch screen OS instead of a Desktop OS - You thought the Fisher Price looks of XP was bad? Win8 and later is even worse.

For those having problem with Win7 installing on new hardware, most of the time it's due to USB 3 since the installer doesn't recognize it. Simply fix is to disable USB 3 mode in the firmware where possible. The real issue is whether the UEFI firmware has the CSM mode available. Means Win7 can install in compatibility mode (bios) instead of pure UEFI as it doesn't fully support it. Recently reinstalled Win7 on my system and discovered that when I disabled the CSM completely so yes, there can be some problems.

The last thing is the Many Lawsuits and possible Antitrust Fines along with FDA and HIPPA fines that MS is going to get hit with due to forcing Win10 upgrades onto some doctors offices. Keep in mind that some of that medical software being used is FDA approved for very specific configurations of Windows and it was not approved for Win10. MS by forcing an upgrade without consent is possibly liable for billions of dollars in FDA fines alone. Take in the Billions for HIPPA violations that occured due to the Forced Upgrade and Data Mininng in Win10 and the Stock Holders are liable to fire the board, which the CEO doesn't care about. Their job is to minimize the impact of many of Balmers decisions in the last 5 years running MS - Yes it's the damn bean counters fault.
You obviously don't know the law very well. Unless Microsoft is partnered specifically with the doctor's office/hospital/whatever in question, they have no liability. The vendor that does all the installs assumes all the liability and takes all the risk.
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