[FossBytes] Meet Serpent OS: A Truly Modern Linux Distribution Under Development - Page 2 - Overclock.net - An Overclocking Community

Forum Jump: 

[FossBytes] Meet Serpent OS: A Truly Modern Linux Distribution Under Development

Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #11 of 39 (permalink) Old 07-01-2020, 04:56 PM
Hey I get one of these!
 
KyadCK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Chicago
Posts: 7,475
Rep: 321 (Unique: 222)
Quote: Originally Posted by Diffident View Post
It's not. I don't know why people still complain about it.

Making a guide that says
Code:
sudo apt-get install p7zip-full
Which they can just copy & paste, Is a lot easier and faster then telling someone to:
Open Software Center, search for p7zip-full, then click the box, then click install.
Making them copy/paste something does not teach them how to use it in the future. You teach someone to fish, not give them one, and walking them through the act of searching helps them understand they can search that location for more things they want, rather than having them search the internet for another copy/paste every time.

Even Repo/Software managers do a poor job of explaining what something is and what it is for when compared to literally just googling what you want to do. The search has no comprehension, and the space allotted to explain is minimal. This works for someone who knows what they want, not someone looking for something new.

Walled gardens are, generally, bad... But Apple/Play store are better for an end user than any linux software manager or apt-get. That is why they exist.

Quote: Originally Posted by iamjanco View Post
That's what I suspected. But aren't there plenty of guides out there now that are chock full of such syntax examples?

Anyway, I was weaned on Unix way back when I was issued my own Sparc 4 at work when I worked for one of the big telecoms. Kinda made it easy to learn how to use the terminal, shell, bash, or whatever people are calling it these days. Didn't have such online guides way back when; just guidebooks, UNIX Help, and learn by example.
The vast majority of guides assumes the user already knows what they are doing or want to do (and are just looking up the commands for reference), and omit the context for any given command and arguments. The official distro documentations are handholdy, but that is not what you get when you search how to do something. God forbid you are using a redhat-based distro and all you get are Ubuntu guides.

People who say that CLI is easy for everyone are the same people that don't recognize the frustration of trying to remember if a command uses / or - for arguments, or have not tried to actually use CLI on a horrible keyboard or touchscreen.

It's almost like the world developed the concept of a GUI for a reason other than to annoy Linux users.

Forge
(15 items)
CPU
AMD Ryzen R9 3900X
Motherboard
Gigabyte X570 Master
GPU
AMD 5700XT PowerColor Devil
RAM
32GB G.Skill TridentZ Neo (2x16GB 3600Mhz/C16)
Hard Drive
Intel 900P 480GB
Power Supply
Corsair AX1200
Cooling
Corsair H150i
Case
Phanteks Evolv X
Operating System
Windows 10 Enterprise x64
Monitor
2x Acer XR341CK
Keyboard
Corsair Vengeance K70 RGB
Mouse
Corsair Vengeance M65 RGB
Audio
Sennheiser HD700
Audio
Sound Blaster AE-9
Audio
Audio Technica AT4040
▲ hide details ▲
KyadCK is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #12 of 39 (permalink) Old 07-01-2020, 04:58 PM
New to Overclock.net
 
matthew87's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 351
Rep: 8 (Unique: 8)
Does it come with an object orientated command line by default?


matthew87 is online now  
post #13 of 39 (permalink) Old 07-01-2020, 06:01 PM
New to Overclock.net
 
Paradigm Shifter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Japan
Posts: 3,009
Rep: 257 (Unique: 204)
The advantage of mixed source/binary will depend on what they make source and what they make binary. UEFI only does mean I have several boxes I would be unable to install this on, which decreases the overall likelihood I will experiment with it, since I normally use an old box as an initial baremetal test.

I hope Doherty hangs around and supports this. He did leave Solus in rather a state when he left.

I've played with Solus/Budgie for a while now on a non-critical box. While I like it better than RedHat/CentOS/Fedora (but that is mostly me loathing Gnome Shell) it can struggle just as much with slightly weird setups as any other distro. My only real complaint with Debian based distros is that they do odd stuff with software RAID; Mint has dealt successfully with what used to be the adventure of getting 3rd party (read: nVidia) drivers installed since Mint 18 or so. Manjaro is the only distro I've used recently where, when booting using the nonfree driver option, I had a fully working system immediately after installation, only thing I needed to do was install CUDA which took longer to download than anything else.

I've never understood why people are scared of the commandline. Powershell, with its obscure syntax, that, I could vaguely understand why. But bash? Sure, you can make bash an obscure mess of cascading possibilities, but day to day tasks are mostly simple. And frankly, with the pseudo-random mess that the Windows 10 Settings area has become, a GUI doesn't always make things simpler, even for non-technical users.

Also, this sounds like it has similar (but less ambitious) aims to those of GoboLinux.


Paradigm Shifter is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #14 of 39 (permalink) Old 07-01-2020, 06:12 PM
New to Overclock.net
 
mothergoose729's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Citrus Heights, CA
Posts: 5,826
Rep: 345 (Unique: 285)
Quote: Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post
Making them copy/paste something does not teach them how to use it in the future. You teach someone to fish, not give them one, and walking them through the act of searching helps them understand they can search that location for more things they want, rather than having them search the internet for another copy/paste every time.

Even Repo/Software managers do a poor job of explaining what something is and what it is for when compared to literally just googling what you want to do. The search has no comprehension, and the space allotted to explain is minimal. This works for someone who knows what they want, not someone looking for something new.

Walled gardens are, generally, bad... But Apple/Play store are better for an end user than any linux software manager or apt-get. That is why they exist.



The vast majority of guides assumes the user already knows what they are doing or want to do (and are just looking up the commands for reference), and omit the context for any given command and arguments. The official distro documentations are handholdy, but that is not what you get when you search how to do something. God forbid you are using a redhat-based distro and all you get are Ubuntu guides.

People who say that CLI is easy for everyone are the same people that don't recognize the frustration of trying to remember if a command uses / or - for arguments, or have not tried to actually use CLI on a horrible keyboard or touchscreen.

It's almost like the world developed the concept of a GUI for a reason other than to annoy Linux users.
Yes, this, all of this. I have a computer science degree and I work as a programmer. I use the CLI everyday. I hate being forced to use the CLI when I mess around with linux.

It is not that I can't learn it, it's that I don't want to. I want to install software and configure my desktop to play games and surf the internet. When I am searching the man pages of xconfig trying to understand the transform commands, because all I want to to is shift my desktop a couple pixels to the right (real world problem I have) I am turned off to linux. In windows, it was a gui option in the drivers that took no instruction at all.

I have no idea why GUI tools haven't been standardized and adopted by linux distro authors. There are so many things you can't do, or at the very least I can't figure out how to do, without having to go into a terminal. Even installing basic software from the software center was a challenge when I set up lubuntu on a destkop recently. Why is this stuff so hard? Why do I have to go to the terminal to add a repo for steam and install it? Why when I install steam, do I have to go back to the terminal and download dependencies that steam requires, but can't seem to download on its own?

I have a CS degree and years of experience with linux and I find it frustrating. If you don't know anything about computers, and you run into issues like this trying to get a system up and running, then it is completely pointless and a waste of your time. Just pay a little extra money for a mac or a windows machine so you can get back to work or play.

To me, the "features" list of serpent OS read like an opinionated check list by nerds, for nerds, that have nothing or very little to do with actually using a computer. Why do I care if the distro only support UEFI boot? What good does it do me if the distro is compiled with or without certain flags or ASM?

I get it, the distro isn't for me, its for someone who does care. And that is fine, that is the beauty of linux and open source software. But most people, even people who have a basic understanding of the release notes like me, don't give a damn.
mothergoose729 is offline  
post #15 of 39 (permalink) Old 07-01-2020, 06:24 PM
Still here...
 
iamjanco's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 2,568
Rep: 147 (Unique: 66)
Quote: Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post
The vast majority of guides assumes the user already knows what they are doing or want to do (and are just looking up the commands for reference), and omit the context for any given command and arguments. The official distro documentations are handholdy, but that is not what you get when you search how to do something. God forbid you are using a redhat-based distro and all you get are Ubuntu guides.

People who say that CLI is easy for everyone are the same people that don't recognize the frustration of trying to remember if a command uses / or - for arguments, or have not tried to actually use CLI on a horrible keyboard or touchscreen.

It's almost like the world developed the concept of a GUI for a reason other than to annoy Linux users.
I hope you're not implying I said learning the cli was easy or that it's easy to learn for everyone; as I recall it took a few months for me to become somewhat comfortable with it without constantly referring to the Help way back when and being sent to school for Perl and being paid for doing so certainly helped. But that was twenty some-odd years ago.

Knowing the cli (or cli's in general) does help accomplish more complex tasks though (e.g., like setting up complex firewalls, vms, etc.). There's even online shops and webhosting that employ cli-based operations to be competent at setting them up and maintaining them (e.g., BigCommerce's Stencil platform, VPS and dedicated server hosting, etc.).

But yeah, not everyone's up to using such services, nor does everyone have a need for them (let alone want). In those areas it's typically a wheat vs. the chaff sort of situation, and it will remain that way until something that suits those who don't or won't use a cli comes along.

That's not going to happen tomorrow though. Maybe in a few years once us old timers die off.


iamjanco is offline  
post #16 of 39 (permalink) Old 07-01-2020, 06:44 PM
Overclocker
 
JackCY's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 11,128
Rep: 364 (Unique: 261)
Quote: Originally Posted by WannaBeOCer View Post
That's where Solus comes into play, it's geared for home users. It's not geared toward work/research/servers because there are already distros available for those purposes. You haven't used Solus if you think you need to use the terminal to get things done. It's easier to get a system up and running on Solus than it is in Windows. All that can be accomplished by Software Center and Hardware Drivers(DoFlicky) if you have a Nvidia video card.

Edit: I want to add pretty much every Linux distro with a desktop can be configured with a GUI. The issue is that all the guides online provide steps using the terminal.
The problem is those GUIs are missing a lot of configuration options or do at times even nothing.
Even on Solus getting Vsync on desktop... good luck with old Nvidia card. Even the damn proprietary driver GUI changes a little from one distro to another, one time a setting is available there, next distro it's not. Some of the desktop environments on some distros will Vsync fine, other do not. This has been the case with two old machines with 2 different NV GPUs.

With all modern hardware... sure the experience on Linux is much smoother (better support, drivers, etc.) and the hardware has more performance to push those resource expensive desktop environments that some distros use.

For older machines it's a cherry picking of distros and desktop environments to get a good user experience.

Quote: Originally Posted by iamjanco View Post
Curious. Why is that an issue?
99% of users have no clue about computers and won't use CLI, doesn't matter if it's on Windows, Linux, Unix or something else. Also it's not always easy to find the CLI tools and their proper complete help/description of options even though on Linux most decent tools do tend to come reasonably documented if you want to read that loooong documentation, again in CLI/simple text form :/

I don't care about CLI vs GUI, I care about effectiveness of use, speed and there GUI almost always beats CLI for anything beside simple one line commands of something trivial to manage.

A lot of the good/advanced stuff on Linux is buried behind hard to know/find console tools. On Windows you get a 3rd party GUI app for free or the setting is in a GUI registry editor if one can't find a premade tool for it.

For an old machine and a basic user who can't much even tell the difference between Windows and Linux, Mint works fine. For my old C2D laptop that's even slower, Solus is nice to experiment with but not as user friendly/familiar for non technical people and if something goes wrong or I need to find something then pretty much screwed with most distros that aren't overly popular with a lot of knowledge base on web ready to use. There are plenty of distros and desktop environments that are nice but are way more resource expensive (hardware performance demanding) than Windows.

GPU drivers and support for all GPU features is a constant pain on Linux.
JackCY is offline  
post #17 of 39 (permalink) Old 07-01-2020, 07:16 PM - Thread Starter
sudo apt install sl
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 6,994
Rep: 196 (Unique: 132)
Quote: Originally Posted by JackCY View Post
The problem is those GUIs are missing a lot of configuration options or do at times even nothing.
Even on Solus getting Vsync on desktop... good luck with old Nvidia card. Even the damn proprietary driver GUI changes a little from one distro to another, one time a setting is available there, next distro it's not. Some of the desktop environments on some distros will Vsync fine, other do not. This has been the case with two old machines with 2 different NV GPUs.

With all modern hardware... sure the experience on Linux is much smoother (better support, drivers, etc.) and the hardware has more performance to push those resource expensive desktop environments that some distros use.

For older machines it's a cherry picking of distros and desktop environments to get a good user experience.
I haven't had any Linux distros GUI do nothing. Only time the proprietary driver GUI changes is when it's a different version(which is often). That's why I use Solus since they keep their packages up to date. The quality of their packages are fantastic with great descriptions in their software center. I don't have to worry about third party repositories.

Getting vsync and G-Sync to work is just a check box on all distro's with nVidia's proprietary drivers when using x11. Even enabling overclocking is just a simple text edit within the driver to modify the xorg.conf file. Again most display issues are due to Nvidia which is why Ikey Doherty mentioned he will be blacklisting Nvidia's drivers.


Quote: Originally Posted by mothergoose729 View Post
Yes, this, all of this. I have a computer science degree and I work as a programmer. I use the CLI everyday. I hate being forced to use the CLI when I mess around with linux.

It is not that I can't learn it, it's that I don't want to. I want to install software and configure my desktop to play games and surf the internet. When I am searching the man pages of xconfig trying to understand the transform commands, because all I want to to is shift my desktop a couple pixels to the right (real world problem I have) I am turned off to linux. In windows, it was a gui option in the drivers that took no instruction at all.

I have no idea why GUI tools haven't been standardized and adopted by linux distro authors. There are so many things you can't do, or at the very least I can't figure out how to do, without having to go into a terminal. Even installing basic software from the software center was a challenge when I set up lubuntu on a destkop recently. Why is this stuff so hard? Why do I have to go to the terminal to add a repo for steam and install it? Why when I install steam, do I have to go back to the terminal and download dependencies that steam requires, but can't seem to download on its own?

I have a CS degree and years of experience with linux and I find it frustrating. If you don't know anything about computers, and you run into issues like this trying to get a system up and running, then it is completely pointless and a waste of your time. Just pay a little extra money for a mac or a windows machine so you can get back to work or play.

To me, the "features" list of serpent OS read like an opinionated check list by nerds, for nerds, that have nothing or very little to do with actually using a computer. Why do I care if the distro only support UEFI boot? What good does it do me if the distro is compiled with or without certain flags or ASM?

I get it, the distro isn't for me, its for someone who does care. And that is fine, that is the beauty of linux and open source software. But most people, even people who have a basic understanding of the release notes like me, don't give a damn.
They still haven't begun developing it yet and I'm sure he is advertising to contributors what his goals are with the new distro he's going to begin working on. Dropping legacy bios support is the new modern trend. Intel announced in 2017 they'll be dropping legacy bios support from all their client and datacenter platforms by 2020. Apple dropped legacy bios support back in 2015, Microsoft is working on it and even released a conversion tool called mbr2gpt(Works very well) back in Windows build 1703. Fedora just started talking about dropping support also.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Screenshot_20200701_190445.png
Views:	26
Size:	6.14 MB
ID:	357976  


Silent
(20 items)
CPU
Core i9 9900K... CoffeeTime! @ 5.1Ghz w/ 1.36v
Motherboard
Maximus VIII Formula
GPU
Titan RTX @ 2100Mhz/2075Mhz
RAM
TeamGroup Xtreem 32GB 3200Mhz CL15
Hard Drive
HP EX950 2TB
Hard Drive
Samsung 850 Evo 1TB
Hard Drive
Samsung 850 Evo 1TB
Power Supply
EVGA SuperNova 1200w P2
Cooling
EK Supremacy Full Copper Clean
Cooling
XSPC D5 Photon v2
Cooling
Black Ice Gen 2 GTX360 x2
Cooling
EK-Vector RTX RE Ti - Copper + Plexi
Case
Thermaltake Core X5 Tempered Glass Edition
Operating System
Solus Linux
Monitor
Acer XF270HUA
Keyboard
Cherry MX Board 6.0
Mouse
Logitech G600
Mouse
Alugraphics GamerArt
Audio
Definitive Technology Incline
Audio
SMSL M8A
▲ hide details ▲

Last edited by WannaBeOCer; 07-01-2020 at 07:23 PM.
WannaBeOCer is offline  
post #18 of 39 (permalink) Old 07-01-2020, 07:30 PM
Newb to Overclock.net
 
mouacyk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 4,018
Rep: 173 (Unique: 128)
"Wayland-only"

^^ Sounds like this OS will be in development for 11 more years, because that's how long it is taking Wayland so far, and it's not game-able yet. Wonder if this guy has enough dough to put on his bait for NVidia.

CPU: Q6600 X5470 2100T 1680V2 9900K
GPU: 8800GT 9800GTX+ 750Ti 1080Ti
RAM: 2x8GBTZ
Gentoo64 in Water
(14 items)
LGA775 X5470
(6 items)
CPU
9900K 5GHz 1.224v
Motherboard
EVGA Z370 Micro
GPU
MSI 1080TI GXEK 2100.5/12627
RAM
16GB Trident Z 4000C16
Hard Drive
970 EVO 500GB
Power Supply
Seasonic X850 Gold
Cooling
480mm Radiator Custom
Case
Silverstone FT03
Operating System
Windows 7 Ultimate 64-bit
Operating System
Gentoo Linux 64 Multi-Lib
Monitor
Acer Predator XB271UH 165Hz
Keyboard
Logitech G710+
Mouse
Logitech G502
Audio
Sound Blaster Z
CPU
X5470 4GHz (stock v)
Motherboard
GA-EP45-UD3P
GPU
EVGA 9800 GTX+ 512MB
RAM
8GB 4x2GB GSkill 1066MHz DDR2
Cooling
XSPC Rasa, D5 + Res, 240mm Rad
Case
Lian-Li PC7-HX
▲ hide details ▲
mouacyk is offline  
post #19 of 39 (permalink) Old 07-01-2020, 07:42 PM - Thread Starter
sudo apt install sl
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 6,994
Rep: 196 (Unique: 132)
Quote: Originally Posted by mouacyk View Post
"Wayland-only"

^^ Sounds like this OS will be in development for 11 more years, because that's how long it is taking Wayland so far, and it's not game-able yet. Wonder if this guy has enough dough to put on his bait for NVidia.
I think it's sooner than 11 years: https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pa...5-RC1-Released

I'm sure KDE will add support to Kwin sometime soon. They've been focusing on Wayland support with 5.19.

I also don't think he's targeting nVidia at all for his games. So far he's just been developing for Intel. https://lispysnake.com/

Silent
(20 items)
CPU
Core i9 9900K... CoffeeTime! @ 5.1Ghz w/ 1.36v
Motherboard
Maximus VIII Formula
GPU
Titan RTX @ 2100Mhz/2075Mhz
RAM
TeamGroup Xtreem 32GB 3200Mhz CL15
Hard Drive
HP EX950 2TB
Hard Drive
Samsung 850 Evo 1TB
Hard Drive
Samsung 850 Evo 1TB
Power Supply
EVGA SuperNova 1200w P2
Cooling
EK Supremacy Full Copper Clean
Cooling
XSPC D5 Photon v2
Cooling
Black Ice Gen 2 GTX360 x2
Cooling
EK-Vector RTX RE Ti - Copper + Plexi
Case
Thermaltake Core X5 Tempered Glass Edition
Operating System
Solus Linux
Monitor
Acer XF270HUA
Keyboard
Cherry MX Board 6.0
Mouse
Logitech G600
Mouse
Alugraphics GamerArt
Audio
Definitive Technology Incline
Audio
SMSL M8A
▲ hide details ▲

Last edited by WannaBeOCer; 07-01-2020 at 07:46 PM.
WannaBeOCer is offline  
post #20 of 39 (permalink) Old 07-01-2020, 09:15 PM
New to Overclock.net
 
kakik09's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 557
Rep: 21 (Unique: 20)
I have no idea what half these words meant. But if it means an easier transition from Windows to Linux for me then I wish it all the best.
kakik09 is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Overclock.net - An Overclocking Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off