[OC3D] Sony Patents a DLSS-like Machine Learning Image Reconstruction Technology for PlayStation 5 - Page 3 - Overclock.net - An Overclocking Community

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[OC3D] Sony Patents a DLSS-like Machine Learning Image Reconstruction Technology for PlayStation 5

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post #21 of 74 (permalink) Old 07-31-2020, 12:33 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by ILoveHighDPI View Post
We've been over this twice now.
Epic is building these features to work across all hardware, including Mobile, right from Switch up to PS5 every game platform is going to be running the same tech. PS5 will be able to load higher quality assets faster but the basic feature set is being applied universally.

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/d...-playstation-5
Man you really have a tentative grasp of how computer games work if you think this is true. The UE5 demo basically maxed out the SSD tech in the PS5. Yes it will work on other platforms, but to actually be at a level that looks next gen its going to require a fast SSD. The PS5's SSD is 5.5GB/s but it also supposedly has some built in compression/decompression technique that pushes it functionally up to over 7GB/s. The kind of detail scaling we saw in the UE5 demo flat out just would not work on anything but a high end SSD.

I don't have a dog in this race but over and over again you comment about how the SSD on the PS5 is just irrelevant to next gen and the tech will just magically scale well to anything and that is just plain wrong and frankly a dumb thing to think given that there is really no reason to think that. There is absolutely zero evidence to date to suggest that the detail streaming in UE5 will work well enough on slower storage devices to eliminate the need for traditional LOD assets, and if it doesn't do that then it doesn't really achieve its purpose. All we know for sure is that tech will work to some lesser extent on other hardware. Maybe it will work well enough on Xbox to get by doing what it needs to do, but its definitely not going to trickle down to anything like the switch in any meaningful way.

I've explained to you before that the SSD's for next gen are more like an extension of the ram since it would be impossible to get the same kid of ram size increases with next gen that we got with other generational transitions but that just doesn't get through to you. It's like when they showed the UE5 demo running on PS5 and said, "look this is what we can do in the UE5 demo with PS5 hardware" you just blanked out the second half of that piece of info and heard it as "this is the new UE5 engine and it will work on anything exactly like you see it here." I dont know how you can see the demo and not realize the level of detail is leaps and bounds higher than what would be possible on anything that's not similarly powerful to the PS5. It should be obvious when you see it.

Quote: Originally Posted by skupples View Post
clearly
Whatever you think we're all missing is very likely just some nonsense.

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post #22 of 74 (permalink) Old 07-31-2020, 12:38 AM
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I agree with gabe, Xbox is positioned better, more power and its static meaning developers can develop for it knowing exactly where the limit is so having some overhead becomes easier so as to ensure consistent performance. Not really sure why the PS5 went with the boost approach, i think Sony found out the Xbox was a decent bit more powerful and scrambled to try and close the gap a bit with overclocking. As for the SSD difference, the PS5 is definitely better but i doubt we'll see any benefits outside of 1st party games. I'm more interested in the new controller and their 3d audio tech. I'll be buying a PS5 first as anything on the Xbox side is also on PC so there's no real point to get both consoles right away.

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post #23 of 74 (permalink) Old 07-31-2020, 12:47 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Malinkadink View Post
I agree with gabe, Xbox is positioned better, more power and its static meaning developers can develop for it knowing exactly where the limit is so having some overhead becomes easier so as to ensure consistent performance. Not really sure why the PS5 went with the boost approach, i think Sony found out the Xbox was a decent bit more powerful and scrambled to try and close the gap a bit with overclocking. As for the SSD difference, the PS5 is definitely better but i doubt we'll see any benefits outside of 1st party games. I'm more interested in the new controller and their 3d audio tech. I'll be buying a PS5 first as anything on the Xbox side is also on PC so there's no real point to get both consoles right away.
Why would you think the boost matters? The Xbox Series X also has some variability in its clock speed depending on the number of threads being used. This has been standard in all CPUs for a long time now so I have no idea why this would be an issue for anyone.

I agree that we're not likely to see many cases where the SSD get's to shine on the PS5 outside of 1st party titles, but if the PS5 outsells the xbox by a lot maybe devs will end up focusing on the PS5 since it would make a lot of their work easier. One thing seems to be sure already, and that's that the PS5 is going to vastly outsell the xbox for at least the first "couple of years".

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post #24 of 74 (permalink) Old 07-31-2020, 12:53 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by ILoveHighDPI View Post
Saying that PS5 has a massive advantage compared to Xbox is like telling a 2010 Hard Drive user that a 600MB/s SSD is going to make a big difference in games vs. a 300MB/s SSD.
It's not.
It's not a valid comparison. When that 300 and 600 MB/s SSD's arrived, games were still being made around loading on HDD's. The SSD's would invariably speed up that process, but there was no development in place to specifically extract as much as possible, from both performance and game design perspectives, from a 600 MB/s SSD.

Now, it's a bit different. At least the way they presented the PS5 suggests the exclusives will target its hardware strengths to accomplish new mechanics and game design, structurally. This paradigm may or may not materialize for different reasons, but the point is that the analogy is not relevant.

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post #25 of 74 (permalink) Old 07-31-2020, 03:21 AM
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Part of the quote even talks about downscaling to fit the platform (PS5 being mentioned as the highest level). Does it make sense to expect the same experience on an Android device simply because it is a supported platform as well?
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post #26 of 74 (permalink) Old 07-31-2020, 03:27 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by ToTheSun! View Post
It's not a valid comparison. When that 300 and 600 MB/s SSD's arrived, games were still being made around loading on HDD's. The SSD's would invariably speed up that process, but there was no development in place to specifically extract as much as possible, from both performance and game design perspectives, from a 600 MB/s SSD.

Now, it's a bit different. At least the way they presented the PS5 suggests the exclusives will target its hardware strengths to accomplish new mechanics and game design, structurally. This paradigm may or may not materialize for different reasons, but the point is that the analogy is not relevant.
The analogy is still relevant.
SATA to PCIe is a significant jump (as was HDD to SSD), PCIe 3.0 to PCIe 4.0 is not rocking the market: https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews...rmance-value/2

We can blame current performance on a weak memory controller but there is no guarantee PS5 will perform significantly better.
Convincing people to buy a product based on a single peak number is the oldest marketing trick in the computer industry.

Trying to argue that doubling SSD bandwidth will result in new game types is also fundamentally flawed, at best it only guarantees you'll have twice the fidelity of details. If you strip back the assets far enough it would be hard to imagine a game scenario that can't be stored in RAM.
All you need to do for the new Ratchet&Clank to run on PS4 is reduce geometry and texture quality, possibly by a lot so I'm not saying people would be enthusiastic about it and it's great to see more game developers trying new things, but thousands of Indie developers have already been pushing the limits of game design with minimalistic graphics for the last decade, the idea that genuinely new experiences will come out of having a faster SSD is really far fetched.
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post #27 of 74 (permalink) Old 07-31-2020, 04:05 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by ILoveHighDPI View Post
The analogy is still relevant.
SATA to PCIe is a significant jump (as was HDD to SSD), PCIe 3.0 to PCIe 4.0 is not rocking the market: https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews...rmance-value/2

We can blame current performance on a weak memory controller but there is no guarantee PS5 will perform significantly better.
Convincing people to buy a product based on a single peak number is the oldest marketing trick in the computer industry.

Trying to argue that doubling SSD bandwidth will result in new game types is also fundamentally flawed, at best it only guarantees you'll have twice the fidelity of details. If you strip back the assets far enough it would be hard to imagine a game scenario that can't be stored in RAM.
All you need to do for the new Ratchet&Clank to run on PS4 is reduce geometry and texture quality, possibly by a lot so I'm not saying people would be enthusiastic about it and it's great to see more game developers trying new things, but thousands of Indie developers have already been pushing the limits of game design with minimalistic graphics for the last decade, the idea that genuinely new experiences will come out of having a faster SSD is really far fetched.
I feel like you're circumventing my main point.

There's a difference between marketing "more performance!" and sacrificing components in a BOM in order to accommodate a specific storage solution with a basis on the work and input of in-house developers.

You say it's farfetched to assume new "game types" (not what I said, but ok), but it seems even more so to think the market leader (Sony vs MS duel) would invest in a component not traditionally highly valued by the target consumer to the detriment of a component that IS, in fact, habitually used as a selling point, all for the sake of an empty promise that yields, practically by design, no significant measurable advantage on PC.

In the realm of speculation, we have to deal in logic and probability. And your position simply looks the weakest. There's little reason to believe Sony's bet will not, in some form or another, allow the creation of revolutionary gameplay mechanics, be them player centric or storytelling/worldbuilding related.

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post #28 of 74 (permalink) Old 07-31-2020, 05:23 AM
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Both the PS5 and XSX have hardware dedicated to decompression, bringing the PS5 "reads" up to about 9 GB/s and the XSX to about 4.8 GB/s


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post #29 of 74 (permalink) Old 07-31-2020, 09:23 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by ToTheSun! View Post
I feel like you're circumventing my main point.

There's a difference between marketing "more performance!" and sacrificing components in a BOM in order to accommodate a specific storage solution with a basis on the work and input of in-house developers.

You say it's farfetched to assume new "game types" (not what I said, but ok), but it seems even more so to think the market leader (Sony vs MS duel) would invest in a component not traditionally highly valued by the target consumer to the detriment of a component that IS, in fact, habitually used as a selling point, all for the sake of an empty promise that yields, practically by design, no significant measurable advantage on PC.

In the realm of speculation, we have to deal in logic and probability. And your position simply looks the weakest. There's little reason to believe Sony's bet will not, in some form or another, allow the creation of revolutionary gameplay mechanics, be them player centric or storytelling/worldbuilding related.

Benchmarks show that PCIe 4.0 SSDs under heavy load usually still drop to practically the same performance as the older drives, Optane is still slow in many instances, and small random reads especially kill bandwidth regardless of what drive you're using.
So when Epic is talking about geometry culling on a per-tiangle basis it sounds like exactly the kind of workload that does kill high speed SSD performance.
If people want to do crazy random things with the SSD it needs to be expecially good at Random Reads, we don't know what workload the PS5's "5.5GB/s" is tuned for.

Second is the issue of capacity.
let's say Sony makes a game where environments are so detail dense that every time you make a 180 degree turn you've loaded 5GB of data, after 10 spaces only large enough to view everything from one location you will have consumed 100GB.
Creating full sized games at this fidelity is simply an impossibility, and as soon as you've fit all your game content into a size that people are willing to download, 5GB/s is no longer relevant.

If you want to create a sufficiently memory intense task to use 5GB/s it's going to be limited to a handful of instances before you run out of storage space, and at that fidelity people won't notice the "super high quality" assets taking an extra two seconds to load after the "high quality" assets.
We're talking about enough bandwidth to effectively load an entire modern game level per-second, 2.5GB/s is still an order of magnitude more than you need just to have decent textures instantly loaded.

People are genuinely going to struggle to find ways to differentiate PS5 from Xbox.
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post #30 of 74 (permalink) Old 07-31-2020, 09:33 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by ILoveHighDPI View Post
People are genuinely going to struggle to find ways to differentiate PS5 from Xbox.
Well, you might be right, but I hope you're wrong. Otherwise, we're giving up graphical capability for nothing.

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