[OC3D] Sony Patents a DLSS-like Machine Learning Image Reconstruction Technology for PlayStation 5 - Page 5 - Overclock.net - An Overclocking Community

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[OC3D] Sony Patents a DLSS-like Machine Learning Image Reconstruction Technology for PlayStation 5

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post #41 of 72 (permalink) Old 07-31-2020, 01:35 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by WannaBeOCer View Post
What do you think AIs in self driving cars are doing?
I don't see your point.

What are they doing that is relevant to this?

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post #42 of 72 (permalink) Old 07-31-2020, 05:11 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by UltraMega View Post
If you are a game developer the kind of asset scaling we say in the UE5 demo is a giant time saver and storage space saver so it has huge benefits beyond just what you see in game. That said, it sounds like you're asking if the CPU and GPU are also revolutionary or fully up to snuff for next gen. To that I would say yes, at least for console specs. The increases to things like physics and volumetrics in other demos was huge and very apparent. Considering pretty much any game out on PC will run fine on a quad core 4 thread i5 with ddr3 ram and a decent GPU, moving to 16 threads will be a giant leap in terms of what we will see in games. The PS4 and Xbox one CPUs are not even really all that much better than the PS3 and Xbox 360 CPUs but they are much easier to code for and have way more memory to work with. This with be the first time in a looooong time we will be able to see AAA games coming out that get to take advantage of more CPU power. I don't think anyone is disappointed with the CPU specs. As far as the GPUs, they match up with something like a 2080 pretty well but they will have some newer hardware features, likely more efficient ray tracing to some extent, advanced upscaling and a bunch of other technical stuff. Both consoles seem well balanced. We can debate which one will be better but there is no debate that they both look really good.
I'm more interested in the actual improvements expected from an extremely fast storage solution. I realize new consoles will be a major upgrade over existing consoles across the board. Most of that is because existing consoles, especially the base versions, had questionable hardware in them when they were released. Even though this has been spinned to, "It's just like a PC now.". Yeah, old consoles were just like a PC too. So was the original console built back whenever it was released. A less robust PC with more limited functionality but a "personal" device and a "computer", nonetheless.

I was asking if there is some performance improvement I am unaware of from a faster storage solution. I'd guess there are ways to leverage it into better performance. But... I really don't know.

By performance I don't mean a giant time saver, the ability to easily scale with the target hardware platform or the ability to conserve storage space. Those things aren't directly performance improvements. The latter is something I care about very little because, well, storage space for playing video games hasn't been any sort of bottleneck for me personally for like... the last decade.

Something like being able to load the relevant assets quickly enough so you cut out loading times is a performance improvement. Moving away from "pop-in" because assets can be loaded extremely fast is a performance improvement. Do we really need a souped up super mega SSD to get there though?

Consoles finally moving away from traditional storage is a pretty big bonus. Ideally this means our games can stop being developed around everyone using a standard HDD to run games from. I'd question how many PC users are actually doing this now, given how long SSD's have been around and the way prices have evolved, but whatever. I'd also wonder how that is going to play out if "new" console games are going to support old consoles too. Given old consoles still come with traditional hard drives.

I'm having trouble buying the notion a super fast NVME drive, instead of a sorta fast NVME drive, is going to translate to huge improvements. It seems to me a better GPU/CPU with a sorta fast NVME drive would offer a better overall user experience. Better graphics, AI, etc. Potentially sacrificing those areas in favor of, "Look, our storage solution is a real thoroughbred"., strikes me as an epic marketing ploy. I'm apprehensive to drink the koolaid. It creates this feeling I'm being offered a car by two companies, one of which has inferior characteristics but an epic, souped up sound system.

Quote: Originally Posted by Tempest2000 View Post
Go watch the Unreal 5 PS5 demo. General consensus is that it's stunning. General dev consensus is that it's heavily dependent on high-speed SSDs for streaming such levels of detail.
That's a demo though. Of course it looks good.

It needs a high-speed SSD to work it's magic, okay. Again, how high speed? I realize the PS5 marketing makes it seem like the console has the Michael Jordan of SSD's. How much of a difference would we get with the Lebron James of SSD's?
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post #43 of 72 (permalink) Old 07-31-2020, 06:15 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Iridium31 View Post
It needs a high-speed SSD to work it's magic, okay. Again, how high speed? I realize the PS5 marketing makes it seem like the console has the Michael Jordan of SSD's. How much of a difference would we get with the Lebron James of SSD's?
5.5 GB/s raw speed, up to 9 GB with dedicated hardware decompression (using tried-and-true, open source zlib and kraken compression) sounds like just "marketing" to you?

A quick google with get you some info:

https://www.laptopmag.com/news/ps5s-...%20special.%22
Quote:
The ability to stream in content at extreme speeds enables developers to create denser and more detailed environments, changing how we think about streaming content. It’s so impactful that we’ve rewritten our core I/O subsystems for Unreal Engine with the PlayStation 5 in mind
https://www.pcgamer.com/fast-ssd-sto...tailed-scenes/
Quote:
To that end, Unreal Engine 5 is being "optimized for next-generation storage." The PlayStation 5 storage tech is "god-tier," says Sweeney, while PCs have some catching up to do. That said, "on a high-end PC with an SSD," and especially with an NVMe SSD, we should get "awesome performance" from Unreal Engine 5 games. (With a good GPU and CPU too, of course.)
So Sweeny is saying that for now, you'll get "awesome performance" from a high-end PC with an NVMe SSD, but it won't be on the level of detail rendered by the PS5 until consumer-level PC SSDs catch up to the PS5 SSD speeds...

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post #44 of 72 (permalink) Old 07-31-2020, 06:46 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Tempest2000 View Post
5.5 GB/s raw speed, up to 9 GB with dedicated hardware decompression (using tried-and-true, open source zlib and kraken compression) sounds like just "marketing" to you?

A quick google with get you some info:

https://www.laptopmag.com/news/ps5s-...%20special.%22


https://www.pcgamer.com/fast-ssd-sto...tailed-scenes/


So Sweeny is saying that for now, you'll get "awesome performance" from a high-end PC with an NVMe SSD, but it won't be on the level of detail rendered by the PS5 until consumer-level PC SSDs catch up to the PS5 SSD speeds...
No, the numbers don't sound like marketing. It's not like the provided specs on hardware are ever misleading. I was curious on the impacts from the numbers though. This is often where marketing finds a place to dig it's dirty claws in...

The second provided link is a pretty good example of what I am getting at. I see a lot of mentions of needing a fast SSD. I also see a lot of mentions on pairing a fast SSD with a quality GPU/CPU. This implies one isn't quite so remarkable without the other.

Anyway, thanks for the links. There are a couple mentions of how the new awesome storage solution can lead to performance improvements. There is also a lot of commentary you could easily replace with, "It makes things better.". If anything this was one of the driving forces behind posing the question. Most places reporting on the improvements could consolidate all their paragraphs and words into, "PS5 SSD is awesome, it makes games better.".
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post #45 of 72 (permalink) Old 07-31-2020, 08:06 PM
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One of the biggest limiting factors for game design for the seventh generation was ram capacity. For the eighth, one has been storage speed. The PS5's SSD may be fast enough to eliminate both at the same time. Once your storage system is fast enough to load any data as you need it, RAM capacity becomes irrelevant.

BTW, I'm talking about game design, not graphics. Obviously more compute is better but it doesn't mean you can make a fundamentally different game. Being able to stream arbitrary data in real time WILL enable fundamentally different games.

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post #46 of 72 (permalink) Old 07-31-2020, 09:21 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by UltraMega View Post
Why would you think the boost matters? The Xbox Series X also has some variability in its clock speed depending on the number of threads being used. This has been standard in all CPUs for a long time now so I have no idea why this would be an issue for anyone.

I agree that we're not likely to see many cases where the SSD get's to shine on the PS5 outside of 1st party titles, but if the PS5 outsells the xbox by a lot maybe devs will end up focusing on the PS5 since it would make a lot of their work easier. One thing seems to be sure already, and that's that the PS5 is going to vastly outsell the xbox for at least the first "couple of years".
Yes the X has two settings for CPU but once those are set they're constant either 3.6Ghz SMT or 3.8Ghz w/o. The GPU is also constant speed so you're always working with those constants and it makes it easier to hit your performance targets when you know exactly what power is available. The PS5 operating on boost becomes trickier because it begs the question do you develop and try to reach your performance target assuming clocks will always be at full boost, or do you deliberately leave some room for overhead just incase the system drops clocks but you want to avoid dips in fps.

Going to be interesting to see if the X having 44% more CUs even when clocked lower will be better than the 36 CUs at higher clocks. From my understanding high clock speeds are beneficial when absolute speed is necessary like rendering scenes at very high frame rates, but these are consoles we're talking about even with 120 fps support we'll rarely see graphically demanding games choose that target and 30-60 fps is more likely at 16-33ms frametimes the extra Mhz won't make a meaningful difference with that much of a CU difference.

Specs aside its the content that really determines winners and Sony has it in spades, it really is looking like another generation win for Sony. I'll end up having both consoles as i enjoy playing older gen titles on new hardware with Microsofts efforts for back compat.

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post #47 of 72 (permalink) Old 08-01-2020, 04:22 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Iridium31 View Post
...Somehow I think 5-10 years from now we will be back to, "Consoles are ruining our games.", narratives though...
Intel IPC hasn't changed in half a decade. 8C/16T Ryzen even just at 3.5Ghz is currently "High End". Amdahl's Law dictates that you quickly hit a wall of diminishing returns with increasing thread count.
The only way PS5/XSX will become significantly outdated in the next 10 years is if we get a miracle doubling of IPC, or 8Ghz processors.

I wouldn't hold my breath for either.

Come 2030 the most significant change I expect to see in CPU tech is "More Cores" with a "Big/little" configuration allowing 16C/32T to be executed efficiently.
Most of the gains in CPU performance for the next decade will be from Software being optimized to use the cores we already have.
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post #48 of 72 (permalink) Old 08-01-2020, 04:25 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by UltraMega View Post
I don't see your point.

What are they doing that is relevant to this?
I too am curious.
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post #49 of 72 (permalink) Old 08-01-2020, 08:37 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by ILoveHighDPI View Post
Intel IPC hasn't changed in half a decade. 8C/16T Ryzen even just at 3.5Ghz is currently "High End". Amdahl's Law dictates that you quickly hit a wall of diminishing returns with increasing thread count.
The only way PS5/XSX will become significantly outdated in the next 10 years is if we get a miracle doubling of IPC, or 8Ghz processors.

I wouldn't hold my breath for either.

Come 2030 the most significant change I expect to see in CPU tech is "More Cores" with a "Big/little" configuration allowing 16C/32T to be executed efficiently.
Most of the gains in CPU performance for the next decade will be from Software being optimized to use the cores we already have.
Hmm, really? You don't expect our existing hardware to be outpaced in a decade? Bearing mind those comments were not speaking exclusively about CPU's. I'm not saying you're wrong but find this hard to believe.

Also, regardless of what Intel has or has not accomplished in half a decade, I don't think this is a reflection on what they could or could not have accomplished in half a decade. It's hard to improve if you're not trying. It's possible to improve if you're trying and failing but, well, the end result in this context should be clear.
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post #50 of 72 (permalink) Old 08-02-2020, 09:05 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Iridium31 View Post
Hmm, really? You don't expect our existing hardware to be outpaced in a decade? Bearing mind those comments were not speaking exclusively about CPU's. I'm not saying you're wrong but find this hard to believe.

Also, regardless of what Intel has or has not accomplished in half a decade, I don't think this is a reflection on what they could or could not have accomplished in half a decade. It's hard to improve if you're not trying. It's possible to improve if you're trying and failing but, well, the end result in this context should be clear.
This whole thread turned into people trying to correct him on the SSD stuff. Zero acknowledgement of that while shifting to a new argument. Seems clear HighDPI wants to argue about this stuff a lot more than he wants to understand it.

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