[The Verge] Rocket League is killing online multiplayer on macOS and Linux - Page 2 - Overclock.net - An Overclocking Community

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[The Verge] Rocket League is killing online multiplayer on macOS and Linux

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post #11 of 20 (permalink) Old 01-27-2020, 10:39 PM
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I guess they probably don't need separate servers for any other OSes, but 7 years of support for Mac and Linux is pretty above and beyond what you get from 99% of the games out there. They must just not want update those versions going forward, and I would guess that's due to lack of players on those platforms.

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post #12 of 20 (permalink) Old 01-28-2020, 12:48 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Diffident View Post
That really doesn't make any sense though. The only things that use DX are Windows and xbox. The game is also on Switch, which uses Vulkan/Opengl. They are going to make a Vulkan version anyway just to run on Switch. If money was really the reason for this, then why not make the game in Vulkan and then it runs on EVERYTHING! (except maybe macOS cause Apple are douches.) Why even bother using DX at all?
Apple recently (well year+ ago) allowed MoltenVK to be used for vulkan games to run on metal API. There are already games running vulkan that run on apple just fine. Remember that metal predates vulkan by quite some time, so the changes to some vulkan parameters to allow it to run in macos were required to allow games to run as sandbox, instead of global (which clash with apple's app privacy agenda). Vulkan support to macos is relatively new, and apple are not developing vulkan, so I have no idea why you are putting the blame on them.

The switch primary api is nvidia's NVAPI (their own version of low level API, which is available on all their GPUs for quite some time now, predates mantle, vulkan, etc). They have added vulkan/opengl es on top of that.

RL base game is using DX for windows/xbox and have been using DX to opengl es translation in order to make it run as opengl. The DX11 to opengl es creates code that does not work with metal without adjustments because it is largely meant to transfer games from windows/xbox to PS (via opengl es to PSSL) /android (which support opengl es natively).
Apple used to support opengl es for ios (not for macos), and they are planning to stop supporting opengl and opengl es because they claim it is no longer efficient enough and metal is faster (well they are not really wrong there).
There are several APIs that act as opengl es or vulkan to metal translators (some are free, some are not). But for apple eco system, metal is the future, just like DX12 is windows/xbox future and PSSL (which is playstation own API) is their own future, etc.

Vulkan support to different APIs and OS need to be done by khronos, not by apple.


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post #13 of 20 (permalink) Old 01-30-2020, 02:11 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Jarhead View Post
but are very happy that Valve has put the resources into Proton and are happy to make it easy for your game to work with Proton, you just might have a sale. If you take a native Linux game down for no reason whatsoever then Go to Hell.
Valve are even more evil.

Their failed attempts to revive or expand linux gaming is not altruistic.

It's all about money and control and trying to break their platforms dependence on Windows. Not because they actually care about Linux.

Quote: Originally Posted by Defoler View Post
Vulkan support to macos is relatively new, and apple are not developing vulkan, so I have no idea why you are putting the blame on them.
Maybe because Apple have the ability to address all the issues you've just mentioned but choose not to?



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post #14 of 20 (permalink) Old 01-30-2020, 06:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote: Originally Posted by matthew87 View Post
Valve are even more evil.

Their failed attempts to revive or expand linux gaming is not altruistic.

It's all about money and control and trying to break their platforms dependence on Windows. Not because they actually care about Linux.
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post #15 of 20 (permalink) Old 01-30-2020, 08:10 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by matthew87 View Post
Valve are even more evil.

Their failed attempts to revive or expand linux gaming is not altruistic.

It's all about money and control and trying to break their platforms dependence on Windows. Not because they actually care about Linux.



Maybe because Apple have the ability to address all the issues you've just mentioned but choose not to?
First off, I find it funny that you put valve as the ones needing to expand linux gaming. Valve have barely a handful of games. They are not the ones in charge of forcing other gaming studios to create linux games.
They tried to convince other developers, they failed. Mainly because YOU as a gamer and part of the gaming community failed to move yourself to linux which would force game developers to move to linux.

If this is chicken and egg, game developers are fine with using windows. You want something else, don't use windows. It is in your hands, not theirs.


And secondly, why should apple address vulkan issues and support to metal?
They are not developing vulkan API.
Its like going to tesla and ranting about why tesla aren't making diesel cars great again. Makes no sense.
Apple do not have the ability nor reason to influence vulkan. They are not part of the contributors to khronos. They are just promoters of certain parts of khronos (because that group is in charge of a lot of things beside vulkan). That is all.
Why should they work on vulkan beside because you want them to? They have metal which is great for them. No reason to work on a second API they are not contributing to.


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post #16 of 20 (permalink) Old 02-05-2020, 10:13 AM
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Fantastic posts btw Defoler, if we still had rep to give, i would toss you one for sure.

Quote: Originally Posted by Defoler View Post
They have metal which is great for them. No reason to work on a second API they are not contributing to.
As for this, if apple wants games on their platform, they need to be more supportive of porting. Some sort of interface layer. RL dropped support for the platform because the userbase got lower than the amount of effort it was worth to sustain it. Apple can say, that's not my problem, or they can try to minimize the effort needed in the ports.... This also goes for linux, but linux doesn't really have a figurehead. You have a WAY better understanding of frameworks, but support is a chicken vs the egg scenario. As you said, valve tried to push devs to make linux games, users didn't switch over fast enough for devs to care to switch. As a dev myself, if i dont need to worry about my code on IE 8, im not going to bother. If someone says, maybe i will need too... still no. With IE 11, no demand not even gonna test it... but if someone says, hey there is a couple people that use this, sure ill look into it. IE8 is a nightmare, while IE 11 i might only need to add a few lines to the css. NOW, this is the funny part... Edge now runs off chromium. I have yet to actually develop or test my stuff on edge vs chrome, but the differences are probably very minimal, out of my control, or waaaaay over my head. At this point, how could i justify not supporting it?

So, perhaps apple SHOULD be contributing. I guess it goes with the question of direction\purpose\mindset of it all. Do we have Vulkan and Metal because we cant use directX , or do they exist because they think they can do better? You can say both, but they point into different directions. If you think you can do better, you are trying to win users by performance. If you cant use it, well your goal is to get users by any means.

IMO Apple should drop Metal because it creates another barrier of entry and how much better do they think they actually are? I dont know too much about Metal, but i assume everyone is going to be on par with each other. Apple likes its proprietary thing, its part of its brand. There is probably more revenue from products on Metal than Vulkan when you think of the Commercial based tools on apple. Think about how much more leverage\power Vulkan would have if it had more support?

So... should apple help its competitors? No. Apple wont bow out. We will always be stuck with 3 major pieces for each of the OS's. Maybe DirectX will mess up, get behind, or maybe people will migrate away from windows in general. Until they have a decent userbase, they need to be as supportive as possible. So, maybe enemy of my enemy is my friend kinda thing. If Apple works with Vulkan (Khronos) , they could probably make the transition much more seamless along with keeping their identity.

Everything is easy said than done and i'm grossly oversimplifying the situation, but as a consumer, this is what I see.



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post #17 of 20 (permalink) Old 02-07-2020, 11:52 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Mrzev View Post
Fantastic posts btw Defoler, if we still had rep to give, i would toss you one for sure

rep has been back for ... 2 years? lol.

it's the confusing looking button that says +Rep in the post bit.


Quote: Originally Posted by Defoler View Post
Mainly because YOU as a gamer and part of the gaming community failed to move yourself to linux which would force game developers to move to linux.

if you can't convince people to go from an OS that costs money to an OS that is free then maybe there's a reason for it

just a thought.


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post #18 of 20 (permalink) Old 02-08-2020, 01:45 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Mrzev View Post
As for this, if apple wants games on their platform, they need to be more supportive of porting. Some sort of interface layer. RL dropped support for the platform because the userbase got lower than the amount of effort it was worth to sustain it. Apple can say, that's not my problem, or they can try to minimize the effort needed in the ports.... This also goes for linux, but linux doesn't really have a figurehead. You have a WAY better understanding of frameworks, but support is a chicken vs the egg scenario. As you said, valve tried to push devs to make linux games, users didn't switch over fast enough for devs to care to switch. As a dev myself, if i dont need to worry about my code on IE 8, im not going to bother. If someone says, maybe i will need too... still no. With IE 11, no demand not even gonna test it... but if someone says, hey there is a couple people that use this, sure ill look into it. IE8 is a nightmare, while IE 11 i might only need to add a few lines to the css. NOW, this is the funny part... Edge now runs off chromium. I have yet to actually develop or test my stuff on edge vs chrome, but the differences are probably very minimal, out of my control, or waaaaay over my head. At this point, how could i justify not supporting it?

So, perhaps apple SHOULD be contributing. I guess it goes with the question of direction\purpose\mindset of it all. Do we have Vulkan and Metal because we cant use directX , or do they exist because they think they can do better? You can say both, but they point into different directions. If you think you can do better, you are trying to win users by performance. If you cant use it, well your goal is to get users by any means.

IMO Apple should drop Metal because it creates another barrier of entry and how much better do they think they actually are? I dont know too much about Metal, but i assume everyone is going to be on par with each other. Apple likes its proprietary thing, its part of its brand. There is probably more revenue from products on Metal than Vulkan when you think of the Commercial based tools on apple. Think about how much more leverage\power Vulkan would have if it had more support?

So... should apple help its competitors? No. Apple wont bow out. We will always be stuck with 3 major pieces for each of the OS's. Maybe DirectX will mess up, get behind, or maybe people will migrate away from windows in general. Until they have a decent userbase, they need to be as supportive as possible. So, maybe enemy of my enemy is my friend kinda thing. If Apple works with Vulkan (Khronos) , they could probably make the transition much more seamless along with keeping their identity.

Everything is easy said than done and i'm grossly oversimplifying the situation, but as a consumer, this is what I see.
A couple of things.

Firstly, vulkan can work on top of metal. Apple early last year allowed and supported molten and moltenvk.
So there is nothing hindering a vulkan based game to run on macos.

And apple are not going to drop metal. Metal is now an integrated part of their different OS. macos, ios and tvos, all run on the same api now. The point was you will be able to run everything on the any platform you like.
The equivalent should be that microsoft and google drop their own APIs (DX and OpenGL ES) and move to 100% vulkan. Do you see that happening? Ever?

And I'm not sure it has anything to do with apple helping competitors. They don't really have competitors in that regard. It is not like apple are competing with microsoft. They are competing as a whole bundle.
And apple have never been a "gaming" in the same sense as pc gaming. They do not advertise their machines as gaming machines (I mean yes you can game on them and they have that arcade thing, but really, the hardware is not there and they know it). So games on mac are mostly added value.
Metal is actually very good for creative work, as the API was designed around adobe, final cut, maya, autocad etc, and less about gaming. The API has a lot of shortcuts for those programs over DX or what opengl used to have. And it has a lot of low level hardware support for AMD since they moved to AMD back in 2015.
For apple metal is the long run, and vulkan is right now still a fab that is barely taking off.


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post #19 of 20 (permalink) Old 02-08-2020, 08:53 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by The Pook View Post

That's nothing to celebrate

Gaijin, Wargaming, DCS, IL-2, hardly have any competition from the west, it might have something to do with their students learning basic programming skills on Linux for decades now.

We make stuff like FIFA, NBA, CoD,..high sugar, ..low in content.

Be honest, behind the facade of those things, the real priority is just screwing everyone over in the name of obscene profit & delaying any kind of backlash as long as possible. That's the real world.
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post #20 of 20 (permalink) Old 02-08-2020, 09:06 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by TriWheel View Post
That's nothing to celebrate

Gaijin, Wargaming, DCS, IL-2, hardly have any competition from the west, it might have something to do with their students learning basic programming skills on Linux for decades now.

We make stuff like FIFA, NBA, CoD,..high sugar, ..low in content.


how was I celebrating?

surely if those games were worth playing then more than 5 people globally would have heard about them.

there's not a FIFA/NBA/CoD game until #22.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ng_video_games

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