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[Digital Foundry] Death Stranding PC Tech Review: The Upgrade We've Been Waiting For

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post #21 of 132 (permalink) Old 07-15-2020, 07:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote: Originally Posted by Defoler View Post
There is a bit of misunderstanding here.
DirectML is an API that is suppose to allow you to tap into machine learning capability of the GPU through directx 12, basically on the fly.

DLSS is not doing machine learning on the fly. It is a library through the drivers that has been "pre-learned" at nvidia labs and gets a certain algorithm that tells the GPU how to render the game and the textures it gets. Those algorithms and library is using the tensor cores to just do the calculations on the frames, not to actually do machine learning on the fly.

So using directML will not actually do the same thing, unless AMD also open a lab to calculate frames like AMD. They might just use directML to tap into the calculations ability of their GPU to calculate rendering through pre-known algorithms, though since AMD hardware doesn't have specific cores for compute, but they are using the same type of cores, it might hurt overall performance to shift some cores into compute over rendering.

But we will have to wait and see.
Looks like you misread what I wrote and misunderstand how neural networks work. I stated AMD is working on a neural network utilizing DirectML. Neural networks are trained, in this case with with 16k images. Then the trained model runs in real-time which is called inferencing(AI is put to work). With DLSS they did per-game training which still ran in real-time. The new model they created called DLSS 2.0 works so well that per-game training isn't required.

AMD already have a model in their drivers called DirectML Media Filters. The Radeon VIIs half precision performance is actually faster than the RTX 2080 when using Tensor cores. The RTX 2080 Ti/Titan RTX are about 2.5x faster. Navi I believe is much slower but can't properly test it since it doesn't support ROCm. When using PlaidML the 5700 XT performance is as fast as a RX 580.

Quote: Originally Posted by UltraMega View Post
No one ever brings up the Nvidia image sharpening option that you can enable in the driver now. I have it on at all times and it works pretty well. In games with render resolution slider I can't really tell the difference in quality until the render res gets below 70-80% if I have image sharpening enabled. It's actually fairly impressive on it's own. If the GPU scaling option is enabled it can work similarly to DLSS in that it can render at a lower res and upscale to a higher res.

I wonder how much DLSS overlaps with the more basic form of Nvidia image sharpening.
Old technologies are rarely talked about. Nvidia FreeStyle has been out since the beginning of 2018 with driver 390.65. All they did was add pre-configured filters to combat AMD's RIS.

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post #22 of 132 (permalink) Old 07-15-2020, 07:30 AM
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looking at the video in native 4k when he shows dlss 2.0 vs native at the 16:00 mark, i can see some big time artifacts with motion(when the vehicle cab lowers to the ground). ill post a screenshot to show it, or you can view it in video but you need to have decent resolution and 4k set on youtube video or its not as easily noticed. Its rather distracting but not sure if its just that scene or happens more elsewhere. Given how he critiques the up close face shots, esp hair flickering it seems like this would bug him also.

screenshot i took of the video to show for those who can't see it full size at native resolution.



Also from the same scene DLSS 2.0 looks like its playing with contrast or maybe there was something changed with the recording from each setting? The text on the car door is darker in DLSS vs native. However most noteable is the reduction of sun glare on the hood. It looks like it was reduced giving a muted overall picture. Not sure if that matters much but again it is more noticeable
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post #23 of 132 (permalink) Old 07-15-2020, 08:24 AM
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So DLSS 2.0 may allow me to use my 2080ti even longer? That sort of performance improvement is impressive, regardless of which one looks better. The fact that people are having a hard time agreeing on which looks better means that it is good enough for me. Do we finally have something associated with RTX that is worthwhile?

I wonder how compatible AMD's version will be with Nvidia hardware. I might not have to replace my gpu for a while.

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post #24 of 132 (permalink) Old 07-15-2020, 08:36 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by bigjdubb View Post
So DLSS 2.0 may allow me to use my 2080ti even longer? That sort of performance improvement is impressive, regardless of which one looks better. The fact that people are having a hard time agreeing on which looks better means that it is good enough for me. Do we finally have something associated with RTX that is worthwhile?

I wonder how compatible AMD's version will be with Nvidia hardware. I might not have to replace my gpu for a while.
I agree. It's close enough.

I also am curious about AMD's implementation. Seeing that DLSS implementation is a per game basis (if I understand correctly) and console games will be run on AMD hardware, how will that translate to the PC space. Things would be so much simpler with a standard to base all these optimizations off.
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post #25 of 132 (permalink) Old 07-15-2020, 09:59 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by WannaBeOCer View Post
Source: https://www.digitalfoundry.net/2020-...en-waiting-for



https://youtu.be/ggnvhFSrPGE


Game looks stunning and runs well on all hardware. DLSS 2.0 looks better than 4K native and with TAA.
If DLSS looks better than 4k with TAA, to me, that says that the TAA in this game isn't very good. Honestly, to me at least, I find that TAA kind of sucks in most titles.


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post #26 of 132 (permalink) Old 07-15-2020, 10:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote: Originally Posted by maltamonk View Post
I agree. It's close enough.

I also am curious about AMD's implementation. Seeing that DLSS implementation is a per game basis (if I understand correctly) and console games will be run on AMD hardware, how will that translate to the PC space. Things would be so much simpler with a standard to base all these optimizations off.
I'm curious will AMD create their own model using DirectML or Microsoft will be releasing a model of their own that will benefit all hardware. From what I've read Microsoft has been working on their own model testing it on the Xbox.

https://www.highperformancegraphics....8_DirectML.pdf

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/win...3d12/dml-intro

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post #27 of 132 (permalink) Old 07-15-2020, 10:24 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by maltamonk View Post
Seeing that DLSS implementation is a per game basis (if I understand correctly)
DLSS 2.0 is general. It's only "per game basis" due to developers having to choose to support it. It requires no specific training.

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post #28 of 132 (permalink) Old 07-15-2020, 10:42 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by WannaBeOCer View Post
Old technologies are rarely talked about. Nvidia FreeStyle has been out since the beginning of 2018 with driver 390.65. All they did was add pre-configured filters to combat AMD's RIS.
I'm not talking about free style, I'm talking about the image sharpening option in the driver. It started out as just a freestyle filter but they improved it, added it at the driver level, and added a gpu scaling option, and it probably been improved upon more and more with subsequent driver updates.

Sounds to me like no one here has even tried it since it was added to the control panel.

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post #29 of 132 (permalink) Old 07-15-2020, 11:25 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by dagget3450 View Post
looking at the video in native 4k when he shows dlss 2.0 vs native at the 16:00 mark, i can see some big time artifacts with motion(when the vehicle cab lowers to the ground). ill post a screenshot to show it, or you can view it in video but you need to have decent resolution and 4k set on youtube video or its not as easily noticed. Its rather distracting but not sure if its just that scene or happens more elsewhere. Given how he critiques the up close face shots, esp hair flickering it seems like this would bug him also.

screenshot i took of the video to show for those who can't see it full size at native resolution.



Also from the same scene DLSS 2.0 looks like its playing with contrast or maybe there was something changed with the recording from each setting? The text on the car door is darker in DLSS vs native. However most noteable is the reduction of sun glare on the hood. It looks like it was reduced giving a muted overall picture. Not sure if that matters much but again it is more noticeable





I think what you're pointing out might be ambient occlusion bug being intensified in DLSS mode. this effect bugs the hell out of me whenever I see it, and i've been noticing it in this title as well (along with the never ending FLOATING ABOVE THE WORLD) I haven't really spent any time messing with the graphics yet though. Sustaining ~80-100 on ultra w. DLSS on. Might mess with my sharpening settings tonight though.



aside from obscenely technology centered nitpicks, the game itself is great. I've wanted Assassins Creed to be a genuine running simulator since it went open world, but they've done nothing but further simplify their push forward + hold A FTW game loop.

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post #30 of 132 (permalink) Old 07-15-2020, 01:24 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by skupples View Post
I think what you're pointing out might be ambient occlusion bug being intensified in DLSS mode. this effect bugs the hell out of me whenever I see it, and i've been noticing it in this title as well (along with the never ending FLOATING ABOVE THE WORLD) I haven't really spent any time messing with the graphics yet though. Sustaining ~80-100 on ultra w. DLSS on. Might mess with my sharpening settings tonight though.



aside from obscenely technology centered nitpicks, the game itself is great. I've wanted Assassins Creed to be a genuine running simulator since it went open world, but they've done nothing but further simplify their push forward + hold A FTW game loop.
It doesn't do it for his side by side clips on TAA or PS4 pro. Wish they would have just included native 4k as TAA is trash like others mentioned(the whole sreen is blur). It's easy to spot in motion on white(lighter) background the artifacting is strong. DLSS 2.0 looks better in his example i think due to the fact the overall image is clearer, as TAA makes it blurred all over.
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Last edited by dagget3450; 07-15-2020 at 01:31 PM.
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