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post #341 of 2891 (permalink) Old 11-13-2012, 10:57 AM
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Hey man, great thread. Great deal of thanks to you for doing this all, and providing it in a pre created list form, where its incredibly simple to see how each fan stacks up relatively to each other fan. Furthermore, the fact that you have provided all the categories that I am interested in proves that you really know your stuff. Not only in regards to fans, but in regards to your ability to present the most useful information in an incredibly succinct manner. Noise-temperature comparison is such an INCREDIBLY USEFUL CATEGORY, and the fact that you have burdened yourself with this task, going well above and beyond the minimum anyone could ever reasonably expect of someone doing this pro bono....All of this speaks volumes to your intelligence and character. My hats off to you sir, for providing such useful information that once again my mind is blown: you have done this for free.

Just one thing: do you happen to have a spreadsheet created perhaps? I saw in one post you said it was difficult, so if not i completely understand. In fact, if you would like help entering this into a spread sheet, I am more than happy to offer my typist fingers. Feel free to ask me to enter as much data as you have gathered. You did the work gathering it, and I am using it. The least I can do is offer a contribution in the (meager) way I can. Unfair of me to take take take from this useful thread and give nothing back, is it not?

Also, would you happen to have higher res graphics? Higher res bar graphs, higher res screenshots I could look at? The size of those makes it incredibly hard for my horrible eyes to read, glasses or no. If not I'll just keep on squinting, but figured i'd ask!

Finally, would you mind sharing what ratio you used for your noise/temperature category? I'm not really understanding what values you used to arrive at these #s. Definitely useful, I would just like to know where this information is being derived from. Obviously your sound measurements are going into play, but I'm not sure how youre arriving at, for example, the 8.95 you did for the NZXT fans temperature/noise rating on the page preceding this one (pg34)? You have measured noise ~39dba and dTemp at ~52 for pull/push, so i'm curious what you used as a formula for arriving at 8.95. Obviously something I personally am just not seeing at the moment, so any further elaboration would be fantastic!

Nothing but thanks and gratitude from me to you man. You have done simply amazing work here, all for free. I really hope people recognize and give you the credit you deserve. I once again take my hat off in reverence! You really went above and beyond here to say the least.

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post #342 of 2891 (permalink) Old 11-13-2012, 11:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Someguy316 View Post

I bought a Cougar CF-V14HB to use as a side intake fan on my CM 690 II Advanced; I actually found it pretty loud even with the resistor cable. It could be the amount of air it's moving though. Would be interesting to see how it performs compared to the 120mm version.

I'm using this fan at the side panel of the 300R case.
At full blast this fan has a weirding noise.
This sound seems to be the turbulence by the air moving inside the case.
I tested blocking the air and this weirding noise gone away.

I'm also a NZXT FZ-140mm owner.
This fan has a bit loud motor noise at full blast (1000rpm).
The Cougar makes a different sound.

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post #343 of 2891 (permalink) Old 11-13-2012, 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by kmac20 View Post

Just one thing: do you happen to have a spreadsheet created perhaps? I saw in one post you said it was difficult, so if not i completely understand. In fact, if you would like help entering this into a spread sheet, I am more than happy to offer my typist fingers. Feel free to ask me to enter as much data as you have gathered. You did the work gathering it, and I am using it. The least I can do is offer a contribution in the (meager) way I can. Unfair of me to take take take from this useful thread and give nothing back, is it not?

Also, would you happen to have higher res graphics? Higher res bar graphs, higher res screenshots I could look at? The size of those makes it incredibly hard for my horrible eyes to read, glasses or no. If not I'll just keep on squinting, but figured i'd ask!

+1 for spreadsheet and higher resolution images. But what Cyclops has now is fine for me.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by kmac20 View Post


Finally, would you mind sharing what ratio you used for your noise/temperature category? I'm not really understanding what values you used to arrive at these #s. Definitely useful, I would just like to know where this information is being derived from. Obviously your sound measurements are going into play, but I'm not sure how youre arriving at, for example, the 8.95 you did for the NZXT fans temperature/noise rating on the page preceding this one (pg34)? You have measured noise ~39dba and dTemp at ~52 for pull/push, so i'm curious what you used as a formula for arriving at 8.95. Obviously something I personally am just not seeing at the moment, so any further elaboration would be fantastic!

Please read the following posts about the Noise to Temperature Rating:

 

1 (Click to show)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by nawon72 View Post


What does the Noise to Temperature Rating mean? (e.g. C*/W is Celsius per Watt)

You may be interested in these PDFs and links about fans (uploaded to MediaFire by me):
http://205.196.123.172/ficnqp8rjrzg/v4d66fn71ktbvdy/Fans.zip

To clarify, it's not a ratio, it's a rating. I simply add delta temperature to noise and then devide it by 10. It's just a way of showing how much a fan can cool relative to how much noise it produces. Obviously the lower the number, the better the fan performs in that criteria.

Thanks for the link, I'll take a look at it.
2 (Click to show)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post

I'm gonna clarify this once and for all. The noise to tempertaure rating is there to access how well a fan can cool and how quiet it is. I came up with that equation primarily for quiet fans.

Here's an example:

Fan A produces 40 DBs and can keep the delta temperature at 50 C. Fan B produces the same amount of noise, but it's delta temeprature is 45 C. Therefore, Fan A's noise to temperature rating is 9 ( [40+50] /10) and Fan B's rating is 8.5. We can conclude that fan B is performing better than Fan A because it's getting a smaller/lower rating (Lower is better).

It's all well and good that some fans like Delta AFB1212GHE-CF00 can bring the tempertures down to 38.9C (In my test suit), but it does that by generating over 80 DB of noise which is unbearable in a typical household.

I could have just made noise and temperature charts and leave the rest well enough alone, but I see more and more people going for quieter and more efficient setups. Having something like noise to temperature rating can help choose the best possible fan(s) that are extremely quiet and can also move a decent amount of air at the same time.
3 (Click to show)
Quote:
Originally Posted by nawon72 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
It's all well and good that some fans like Delta AFB1212GHE-CF00 can bring the tempertures down to 38.9C (In my test suit), but it does that by generating over 80 DB of noise which is unbearable in a typical household.

The delta temperature is halved when you double the flow rate, which is why there is little benefit to very high RPM fans when your using a heat sink with a low pressure drop. Here's an example:

 

 

Let's assume 0 pressure drop (ventilating resistance, or restriction) to make it easier.

 

Scenario A:

Fan A @2000RPM: 50CFM, 2*C ΔT, 40dB

Fan A @4000RPM: 100CFM, 1*C ΔT, 55dB

 

You lower the ΔT by 1*C, but at what cost (in terms of noise)? Well, doubling the RPM will increase the noise by 15dB. Definitely not worth it.

 

Scenario B:

Fan A @1000RPM: 25CFM, 10*C ΔT, 25dB

Fan A @2000RPM: 50CFM, 5*C ΔT, 40dB

 

This time your ΔT drops by 5*C. You may have increase the noise by 15dB but Fan A @1000RPM was very quiet, and now the fan is at a tolerable noise level. So with little cost in terms of noise, you have lowered the ΔT by 5*C.

 

Scenario C:

Fan A @500RPM: 12.5CFM, 20*C ΔT, 10dB

Fan A @1000RPM: 25CFM, 10*C ΔT, 25dB

 

ΔT is now 10*C lower, but the fan is still very quiet. Quite a large gain for almost no cost in noise.

 

Equations used for the above:

CFM = 3.16 x W / ΔT (°F)

Assuming specific heat and density for sea level.

 

CFM2 = CFM1 (RPM2 / RPM1)

 

N2 = N1 + 50 log10(RPM2 / RPM1)

Where: N = noise (dB)

Assuming speed and noise vary in proportion to the fifth power.

 

Note: ΔT is the difference between the inlet and outlet temperature of the heat sink and fan/s combination.

 

 

Keep in mind that +10dB is a doubling in noise. Let's add 40*C to the ΔTs since the heat transfer between the CPU and heat sink is not 100% efficient. Based on the above and using your rating, the lower the RPM, the better the fan.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post

Fan A produces 40 DBs and can keep the delta temperature at 50 C. Fan B produces the same amount of noise, but it's delta temeprature is 45 C. Therefore, Fan A's noise to temperature rating is 9 ( [40+50] /10) and Fan B's rating is 8.5. We can conclude that fan B is performing better than Fan A because it's getting a smaller/lower rating (Lower is better).

The bold part seems to be the flaw. If noise is constant, then you can compare the fans directly. But with the noise being different for each fan, I believe you have to account for the perceived noise level (+10dB is a doubling in noise). The fans must be compared "apples to apples".

 

For example:

Fan A @50dB: 2500RPM, 8*C ΔT

Fan B @29dB*: 1250RPM, 20*C ΔT

 

*Measured 50cm from the intake rather than the standard 1m

 

If Fan B was measured at the same distance as Fan A, it would be 6dB louder (when the reflection sound to nearby walls is ignored).

 

So now it's:

Fan A @50dB: 2500RPM, 8*C ΔT

Fan B @35dB: 1250RPM, 20*C ΔT

 

Based on your rating (after adding 40*C to ΔT):

Fan A: 9.8

Fan B: 9.5

 

Fan B is better. Let's see what happens when we double the RPM of Fan B to match that of Fan A:

 

Fan A @50dB: 2500RPM, 8*C ΔT

Fan B @50dB: 2500RPM, 10*C ΔT

 

Based on your rating (after adding 40*C to ΔT):

Fan A: 9.8

Fan B: 10

 

Fan A is better. How can this be wth.gif!? Well it seems that the lower the RPM, the more of an advantage the fan has in these zero pressure drop scenarios. Once you add some ventilating resistance, I suspect there will be a certain RPM for the heat sink you are using that will give the fans an unfair advantage when compared using your rating. And that doesn't even account for the fact that dB is not linear.

 

You may have already known that fans have a "sweet spot" in terms of pressure drop, but in case you didn't here is a graph that shows it.

 

 

So can you please stop rating the fans this way? smile.gif And make sure any replacement equation you use makes sense.

 

 

 

Hopefully I didn't make any mistakes in the above. If I did, feel free to point them out with evidence to back it up.

 

Edit: Make sure you read the changes in the latest edit.

4 (Click to show)
Quote:
Originally Posted by nawon72 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabedamien View Post

Wait, I just read how you are determining the noise-to-temp rating. Simple addition is not a mathematically valid way to create a useful comparative rating in this case. Comparing noise and temperature is the ultimate goal, yes, but your additive method just doesn't make physical sense. It treats 1 dBa and 1 °C as functionally equivalent values, both equally weighted. But in reality, a 10 dB difference at low temps is much more significant than a 10°C change, whereas a 10°C difference at critical temps is much more significant than a 10 dB change. Another example:

FAN A: +70°C ∆T at 10 dB
FAN B: +50°C ∆T at 30 dB

Your ranking system gives both of these fans an identical NTT rating of 9.0. But anyone with sense would choose FAN B over FAN A. So what good is your rating? It only works when you hold one value (either noise or ∆T) constant between both fans; but if you do that, there is no need to do any additional arithmetic, because you have a single frame of reference. You might as well simply quote the other variable (the one that varies between the two fans for that reference level):

FAN C: +41°C ∆T at 25 dB
FAN D: +48°C ∆T at 25 dB

SPCR deals with this in a very good way; they create three reference sound levels (e.g. 11 dB, 16 dB, 21 dB) and show the ∆T for each. Another way would be to create a more detailed noise-to-temp curve for each fan as it varies along its RPMs, and graph them all together (this is essentially just a richer visual representation of SPCR's coarser review method). You cannot reduce the matter of interest to a single value, however, since it's an inverse relationship with a non-linear curve.

If it WAS linear, the relationship would be:

∆T = R x (dB) + i

You can immediately see that even an inverse linear relationship is problematic since both the slope R and the non-trivial intercept i are germane to our concerns. On a dB vs CFM graph the intercept is zero, so we can simply refer to the noise/CFM ratio as a good comparative ratio between fan designs. Of course, in reality, even noise vs CFM is not actually linear, so that is better represented graphically.

In any case, directly adding noise and temps is physically meaningless and does not reflect any kind of real-world relationship between these values. More critically, it is simply not useful.

Thanks for confirming what I had said earlier. +rep

 

dBA to CFM would look like something like this:

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/9186/testchartfine1.png

 

As you can see, the CFM starts to increase more per dBA. That's probably due to: P2 = P1 (RPM2 / RPM1)2. CFM and RPM and linear, but pressure is not. In fact, it looks a bit like the inverse of a SP:RPM graph.

 

Also, it seems like you know a lot more than me. So I'll let you do the explaining tongue.gif

 

Edit: If you add RPM to the NTT graphs, you will see that it favors low RPM fans (which I said before). So it doesn't work in practice either.

5 (Click to show)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabedamien View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by nawon72 View Post

Thanks for confirming what I had said earlier. +rep

...Also, it seems like you know a lot more than me. So I'll let you do the explaining tongue.gif

Edit: If you add RPM to the NTT graphs, you will see that it favors low RPM fans (which I said before). So it doesn't work in practice either.

Thanks. I just now read through the entire thread so that I knew what was going on, and I have a couple of comments. I would actually say that you have a stronger knowledge of the physics than I have; my background in mathematics and basic sciences simply gave me enough insight to recognize that this value was not useful, and corroborate your earlier assertions.

Cyclops, please note the following, with my humble thanks for your attention on this matter:
  • First and foremost, your testing of all these fans is very welcome and useful and has produced a lot of valuable data. I do not in any way want to minimize your considerable effort, nor its practical yield.
  • The main, perhaps the only thing I (and others) object to is the mathematically/physically invalid invention of your NTT rating. It simply isn't a meaningful interpretation of the data. It may look grossly right when you compare an extremely low noise fan to an extremely high noise fan, but for everything in between the distinctions are not necessarily indicative of anything at all.
  • My proposal is that you simply eliminate the NTT rating, both from your tables and from the page 1 graphs. Instead, an extremely effective and useful ranking method would be to plot the noise vs ∆T curves for each fan onto a single graph. Obviously this may end up very difficult to read if ALL fans are included, so solutions could include grouping fans by category and making several graphs, or (if someone has the scripting chops for it) creating a dynamic (e.g. javascript) graph with toggled fans. Of course I don't expect you to expend this extra energy; but perhaps you could make your raw data available so a volunteer could produce said graphs. Someone could of course go through and copy all the values manually... but that someone wouldn't be me. wink.gif

Sincerely,
—G
6 (Click to show)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post

I'm not gonna entertain any more trolls smile.gif.

 

You may also want to read the posts in between.



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post #344 of 2891 (permalink) Old 11-14-2012, 08:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Hey man, great thread. Great deal of thanks to you for doing this all, and providing it in a pre created list form, where its incredibly simple to see how each fan stacks up relatively to each other fan. Furthermore, the fact that you have provided all the categories that I am interested in proves that you really know your stuff. Not only in regards to fans, but in regards to your ability to present the most useful information in an incredibly succinct manner. Noise-temperature comparison is such an INCREDIBLY USEFUL CATEGORY, and the fact that you have burdened yourself with this task, going well above and beyond the minimum anyone could ever reasonably expect of someone doing this pro bono....All of this speaks volumes to your intelligence and character. My hats off to you sir, for providing such useful information that once again my mind is blown: you have done this for free.
Just one thing: do you happen to have a spreadsheet created perhaps? I saw in one post you said it was difficult, so if not i completely understand. In fact, if you would like help entering this into a spread sheet, I am more than happy to offer my typist fingers. Feel free to ask me to enter as much data as you have gathered. You did the work gathering it, and I am using it. The least I can do is offer a contribution in the (meager) way I can. Unfair of me to take take take from this useful thread and give nothing back, is it not?
Also, would you happen to have higher res graphics? Higher res bar graphs, higher res screenshots I could look at? The size of those makes it incredibly hard for my horrible eyes to read, glasses or no. If not I'll just keep on squinting, but figured i'd ask!
Finally, would you mind sharing what ratio you used for your noise/temperature category? I'm not really understanding what values you used to arrive at these #s. Definitely useful, I would just like to know where this information is being derived from. Obviously your sound measurements are going into play, but I'm not sure how youre arriving at, for example, the 8.95 you did for the NZXT fans temperature/noise rating on the page preceding this one (pg34)? You have measured noise ~39dba and dTemp at ~52 for pull/push, so i'm curious what you used as a formula for arriving at 8.95. Obviously something I personally am just not seeing at the moment, so any further elaboration would be fantastic!
Nothing but thanks and gratitude from me to you man. You have done simply amazing work here, all for free. I really hope people recognize and give you the credit you deserve. I once again take my hat off in reverence! You really went above and beyond here to say the least.

Thank you very much for your kind words, they mean alot. They certainly gave me a moral boost to continue my work knowing that some people out there actually appreciate what I do smile.gif.

Now, regarding your questions, I don't exactly understand what you mean by a spreadsheet. Are you talking about the charts in post #1? If you can clarify what it is you think that needs to be improved, I'll take a look at it and I'll be more than happy to enlist your help in my project smile.gif.

About the pictures, I take them at a resolution of 2592x1944 (Nokia Cellphone Camera), and they are pretty detailed. You can click on an image to make them bigger or save them to your computer and view them the way you like.

Lastly, the noise to temperature rating was something that I came up with before starting the project. It's not a ratio since it's not something like Noise / Temperature, etc. The formula is quite simple and consistent: [Noise + Temperature] / 10. For example, if a fan makes 42.5 DB of noise and has a delta temperature of 45C, the nose to temperature rating would end up like this: [42.5 + 45]/10 = 8.75. I didn't really need to devide it by 10, but I did that just to have smaller numbers.

Thank you again for your feedback wink.gif.


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post #345 of 2891 (permalink) Old 11-14-2012, 05:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmac20 View Post

Just one thing: do you happen to have a spreadsheet created perhaps? I saw in one post you said it was difficult, so if not i completely understand. In fact, if you would like help entering this into a spread sheet, I am more than happy to offer my typist fingers. Feel free to ask me to enter as much data as you have gathered. You did the work gathering it, and I am using it. The least I can do is offer a contribution in the (meager) way I can. Unfair of me to take take take from this useful thread and give nothing back, is it not?
Also, would you happen to have higher res graphics? Higher res bar graphs, higher res screenshots I could look at? The size of those makes it incredibly hard for my horrible eyes to read, glasses or no. If not I'll just keep on squinting, but figured i'd ask!

Now, regarding your questions, I don't exactly understand what you mean by a spreadsheet. Are you talking about the charts in post #1? If you can clarify what it is you think that needs to be improved, I'll take a look at it and I'll be more than happy to enlist your help in my project smile.gif.

About the pictures, I take them at a resolution of 2592x1944 (Nokia Cellphone Camera), and they are pretty detailed. You can click on an image to make them bigger or save them to your computer and view them the way you like.

Lastly, the noise to temperature rating was something that I came up with before starting the project. It's not a ratio since it's not something like Noise / Temperature, etc. The formula is quite simple and consistent: [Noise + Temperature] / 10. For example, if a fan makes 42.5 DB of noise and has a delta temperature of 45C, the nose to temperature rating would end up like this: [42.5 + 45]/10 = 8.75. I didn't really need to devide it by 10, but I did that just to have smaller numbers.

Thank you again for your feedback wink.gif.

I believe kmac20 wanted an excel spreadsheet with all the data collected so far, and offered to enter the data into one if you haven't already.

 

These are some example of the images being referred to:

 

kmac20, please correct me if I'm wrong.



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post #346 of 2891 (permalink) Old 11-15-2012, 01:39 PM - Thread Starter
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120mm Fan #35 - Spire Air Force 120 SP12025N7L4-B-PWM:





Well, this product has a couple of cool features going for it. First off, this is the first fan I've reviewed that is modular. By that I mean the cable is detachable. Now, you might ask, "Why would you want a detachable fan cable". Well, the included cable has decent braiding. It's not the best but it's adequate. It gives you the option to replace it with something better, maybe a cable with different color/braiding or lengh, to help with aesthetics and cable management respectively.

Secondly, as you can see from the pictures, it comes with 8 sets of rubber grommets to help reduce vibration, and since normal fan screws might not be compatible with these grommets and the mounting holes, the product comes with it's own nuts and bolts. Overall, it looks good when it's lit and inside a case, although the purple/blue LED for this particular skew might not be for everyone.

Last but not least. the cooling efficiency is slightly above average, nothing groundbreaking but it gets the job done. Overall an interesting product. I'd like to see more manufacturers make detachable fan cables, but then again I don't see a good reason for it as long as the sleeving is done properly.

A shout out to folks at Performance-PCs.com for sending me a pair of these fans to review.


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post #347 of 2891 (permalink) Old 11-15-2012, 02:14 PM
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Wish someone sent you that Joujye Twin turbo fan...Have you seen any pwm 6000rpm 250cfm 120mm fan with molex AND 4 pin connector for pwm duty control, that stops at 0%? I haven't seen any other. rolleyes.gif
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post #348 of 2891 (permalink) Old 11-15-2012, 02:17 PM
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Not gonna lie, didn't read through all the pages, but from what I did skim through, I have just one comment: ehume, where are you? tongue.gif

On a more serious note, good job.

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post #349 of 2891 (permalink) Old 11-16-2012, 08:43 AM - Thread Starter
165 Hz
 
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120mm Fan #36 - Spire Air Force 120 SP12025N7L3:





I reviewed the older brother of these fans yesterday, so aesthetics are pretty much the same except for a couple of minor details. This particular skew has no LEDs and does not come with PWM technology so the cable is slightly different, althought it uses the same braiding. Other than that, the stats on the back of the box suggests the same top end performance but my experience was a bit different as these fans spun slightly slower than the PWM version. Because of that, the noise to cooling efficiency is improved by a small margin.


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post #350 of 2891 (permalink) Old 11-16-2012, 10:59 AM
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The NB Eloops have detachable fan cables as well smile.gif They even give you two different lengths of fan cables: one 20cm and one 50 cm (or a total of 70cm, which is 28 inch I believe)
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