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post #21 of 49 (permalink) Old 03-13-2019, 09:02 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by doyll View Post

The reason CLC test results appear to be cooling better than air cooler is because of air temp into CLC as case intake is way cooler than air temp into air cooler when testing in a case built test system.

given most reviews are done on test benches and see AIO's cooling better the case argument is a moot point. Also if the test is done on a test bench it is only relevant to a test bench not an enclosed system so not comparable to a home system. The AIO has the advantage here that the rad has access to cooler air. You can't try and equalise a system just because one cooler has an advantage over another.
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post #22 of 49 (permalink) Old 03-13-2019, 09:04 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by doyll View Post
First off, almost all AIOs you are referring to are CLCs, a sub-group of AIO and not near as well built as AIOs that are not CLCs. Asetek's almost monopoly on CLC cooling with sales as good as they are means they have no real incentive to improve product. They change the looks a little, add RGB and call it a new 'generation' product.



All of this 1st gen, 2nd gen, etc hype is just that, hype with little to no real changes in pump, raidator, etc. I have seen nothing that indicates there is any real functional difference in performance from original H100 vs most resent Asetek CLCs using same size radiators. They have changed to quieter fans, but that has also lowered their maximum cooling ability.



Asetek has published almost nothing of their pump performance so we have no way of knowing what their lift and flow rates .. but from what few independent tests I've seen there is no real difference in pump flowrate from original Asetek to latest generation .. all have a flow rate about equal to what a healthy adult can urinate which is 40-60 L/h .. somewhere between 34 L/h to 61 L/h.



If you have any data and supporting links please post them so we can see the differences.

Generation differences are not just "marketing hype and RGB", the pump is different in every generation except between 5/6. Flow rate was improved between most generations as well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asetek

Flowrate is not the only factor in noise levels or in performance, so using it as a barometer is kind of silly. Yeah, they're really low compared to a real loop but I don't get mad if my dog doesn't moo.

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post #23 of 49 (permalink) Old 03-13-2019, 09:10 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by TK421 View Post
I have



Phanteks Enthoo Luxe


All NF A14 PWM fan (beige)
2x intake front to HDD bay
3x intake top (mesh) to inside PC case
1x exhaust rear


I'm not getting that great of temps to my cooler, even with a positive air pressure config.


Do you have data on the H150i or any of the Gen 6 pumps?












H360 x3 is better?



Any temp comparison and overall QC comparison?


How about the reliability of the cooler without maintenance (no drain/refill)?





The issue is that I'm unwilling to disassemble the open loop at all.












The Phoenix struck my interest since it's advertised as prebuilt and can easily add a GPU block if need be.


I'm not sure how maintenance free it is though. And it's more expensive than all the options for CLCs. Even when buying H150i + EVGA hybrid kit.

A few things:
1. Those top intakes may be hurting cooling performance. Top intakes are very specific and their effectiveness depends on many things. I have used top intakes on my Enthoo Pro and I had to place them just right for them to be effective. Having said that, they are more helpful with pancake style CPU coolers.

2. Just pumping air into the case is not good enough. That hot air needs to flow out somehow and at a fast enough rate to not de detrimental to cooling performance. I really hope that single active exhaust in your setup is a really high rpm/airflow fan to keep up.

3. The Enthoo Pro/Luxe are great cases, but they are more geared toward water cooling than air (lots of radiator mounting options and more exhaust ports than intakes by default).


As Doyll pointed out, CLCs are easier to keep cool compared to air coolers. With air coolers you are contending with the air inside your case, which is often heating up from nearby components. You have to make sure to balance your air flow so that it does not heat up the cooler unnecessarily. With a CLC (or any water cooling setups) your main source of heat will be the radiator, which is often placed at exhaust ports (or even outside).
A good air cooler can match a CLC, but it takes more effort from your part.

Personally, I will never be interested in a CLC as long as the rads are Al. I know a proper Cu rad will for certain jack up the price, but I'm sure peeps like CM or Corsair can work some magic.

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post #24 of 49 (permalink) Old 03-13-2019, 09:26 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by The Pook View Post
Generation differences are not "marketing hype and RGB," the pump is different in every generation except between 5/6. Flow rate was improved between most generations as well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asetek

Flowrate is not the only factor in noise levels.
Your saying flowrate was improved has no supporting data anywhere that I know of, so unless you can post links to what the flowrate and lift are it's means nothing but that it is advertising hype to me.


Yes, flowrate is only one part of performance, but when CLC flowrates are a fraction of what all custom loop pumps flow and the total lack of any pump performance specificatons to me means Asetek (and other CLC OEMs) don't what consumer knowing how poorly they perform.


Sure, Asetek has made a few changes, but without having any published specifications of flowrate, lift, noise, we have no way of knowing what their product's performs is . Look around at other water cooling pumps and the only ones not publishing the above information are CLCs. AIO and H2O custom loop component pumps all give their performance specifications, just like most fans have their performance specificatons published. Again, it's only CLCs that don't tell us their pump specs.


Alphacool OEM for be quiet! Silent Loop and their own Aisbaer AIOs publsh their pump specs as 72 L/h & 1 meter head and 100 L/h & 0.6 meter head.



Swiftech AIO pumps are rated 660 L/h & 2.8 meter head.


EK-D5 pump is rated 1500 L/h & 3.9 meter head.


So Alphacool OEM has almost twice the flowrate of Asetek, Swiftech is more than 10 times more flow, and D5 is more than 20 times more flow .. now if flow was not important why are all but CLC pumps flowing so much more coolant?



Your link doesn't give anything but some lip-service about mostly cosmetic changes, just like I keep saying. I've talked to Asetek reps several times over the years and they can't give me or any other consumer any pump specifications .. either because they don't know or because of disclosure agreements.


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Quote:
Flowrate is not the only factor in noise levels or in performance, so using it as a barometer is kind of silly. Yeah, they're really low compared to a real loop but I don't get mad if my dog doesn't moo.
So you are admitting CLCs are not 'real loops'.


Not silly at all. Reason for posting range of pump flowrates was to show just how extremely below the norm CLC pump flowrates are. That CLCs are water cooling loops is a fact. How poorly they perform compared to other H2O loops is the point.

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Last edited by doyll; 03-14-2019 at 05:38 AM.
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post #25 of 49 (permalink) Old 03-13-2019, 09:41 AM
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no one connects a D5 to a single radiator.

the pumps are designed per function. You don't need 5 radiators & 6 blocks worth of pump if you've only got one dinky little radiator.

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post #26 of 49 (permalink) Old 03-13-2019, 09:56 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by skupples View Post
no one connects a D5 to a single radiator.

the pumps are designed per function. You don't need 5 radiators & 6 blocks worth of pump if you've only got one dinky little radiator.
I beg your pardon....I use a D5 with a single rad in my loop.

Mind you.....I downsized my build and loop and used the D5 since I had it on hand. But, I may well have used a D5 anyway, simply for the reliability aspect, and the fact that I find the tonality of them far less intrusive than smaller pumps.

Yeah....the little girl hentai avatar is really creeping me out....
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post #27 of 49 (permalink) Old 03-13-2019, 10:03 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by TK421 View Post
I have
Phanteks Enthoo Luxe
All NF A14 PWM fan (beige)
2x intake front to HDD bay
3x intake top (mesh) to inside PC case
1x exhaust rear
2x front are good, top are probably making things worse, not better, rear exhaust is probably not making much difference.

You could try removing all PCIe back slot covers to increase rear vent area around GPU and thus more front to back airflow moving more cool air to GPU and moving GPU's heated exhaust back and out of case.

What CPU cooler and GPU cooler are you using?


Quote: Originally Posted by TK421 View Post
I'm not getting that great of temps to my cooler, even with a positive air pressure config.
What cooler?


Quote: Originally Posted by TK421 View Post
Do you have data on the H150i or any of the Gen 6 pumps?
Asetek does not publish their pump specificatons, so we have very little to go on. That said their pumps are likely 40-60 L/h at most .. that's about the same flowrate as a healthing adult urine flowrate.


Quote: Originally Posted by TK421 View Post
H360 x3 is better?
Do you mean three 360 radiators? Case will not flow air through case with that many radiators. Cases only flow as much as the lessor of the two; intake area vs exhaust area. So if case has 7x 140mm vents it can only flow about 3 vent's of airflow .. 4x vents in to 3x vents out is only 3x vents of airflow .. 3x vents in to 4x vent's otu is sitll only 3x vent's airflow.
You might find below link to how airflow works and how to optimize case airflow of interest .. if you haven't already read it.
https://www.overclock.net/forum/22319249-post5.html



Quote: Originally Posted by TK421 View Post
Any temp comparison and overall QC comparison?
I used a Luxe for awhile and found it had good airflow and cooling.

Quote: Originally Posted by TK421 View Post
How about the reliability of the cooler without maintenance (no drain/refill)?
Liquid cooling needs servicing and maintance. Same as automotive and other water cooled applications do.


Quote: Originally Posted by TK421 View Post
The issue is that I'm unwilling to disassemble the open loop at all.
Then you are probably better off using a good air cooled setup that is easier to keep clean .. like one with good intake filters that you vacuum off at least once a month.

Quote: Originally Posted by TK421 View Post
The Phoenix struck my interest since it's advertised as prebuilt and can easily add a GPU block if need be.
I'm not really up to date on how good/badd Phoenix is, but it will need servicing same as any other good H2O loop does.

Quote: Originally Posted by TK421 View Post
I'm not sure how maintenance free it is though. And it's more expensive than all the options for CLCs. Even when buying H150i + EVGA hybrid kit.
Answer above, it is not maintanance free.

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post #28 of 49 (permalink) Old 03-13-2019, 10:05 AM
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Hi,
Every assembled loop kit has a single d5 and single rad
Some do have the low end pump but these are really budget kits but still single rad.

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post #29 of 49 (permalink) Old 03-13-2019, 10:05 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Melcar View Post

Personally, I will never be interested in a CLC as long as the rads are Al. I know a proper Cu rad will for certain jack up the price, but I'm sure peeps like CM or Corsair can work some magic.
the radiator is just one of the parts for heat removal. If the implementation of the IHS is poor like intel then you are going to be limited to the amount of heat that can actually be absorbed. Having a copper rad isn't going to help that. Only way a copper rad will help is if the rest of the system can extract enough heat for the difference in thermal conductivity to be of advantage. Alu can dissipate heat better than copper as it is of a lower density. There is more to cooling that just the rad.
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post #30 of 49 (permalink) Old 03-13-2019, 10:08 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by ciarlatano View Post
I beg your pardon....I use a D5 with a single rad in my loop.

Mind you.....I downsized my build and loop and used the D5 since I had it on hand. But, I may well have used a D5 anyway, simply for the reliability aspect, and the fact that I find the tonality of them far less intrusive than smaller pumps.
you aren't the target market for these devices.

its a product for new users. New gaming users, new performance chasing users, etc.

Most folks (depending on age) started with a giant air cooler, then an AIO back in the late 2000s, early 201xs.

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