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post #11 of 28 (permalink) Old 09-12-2019, 11:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote: Originally Posted by BS Zalman View Post
That means your Memory OC is not stable. As far as i know 51 C is still far from the maximum temperature DDR4 can handle, i heard/read DDR4 can take more than 90 C just fine.

I found in my experience that TestMem5 is very good at hunting the memory instability, but dont use the default profile. Use 1usmus_v3 profile, and if you want to be sure change to run for 10 or more cycle.

And if you OC the Infinity Fabric (3800) you must stres test the whole system too, since mem test application only stress the memory part. Use Real Bench, 3D Mark, blender, X264 stress test that use real workload.

Gaming is a good indicator too, if you found stuttering and crashing while gaming with OC setting meanwhile in a default setting you never found one, that means your system is not fully stable
DDR4 can take 95c max but stability problems start after 45c, yes i know my ram is unstable... thats why im asking what to do with airflow...

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post #12 of 28 (permalink) Old 09-13-2019, 12:39 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Synoxia View Post
DDR4 can take 95c max but stability problems start after 45c, yes i know my ram is unstable... thats why im asking what to do with airflow...
I don't think it's because the temperature. Because my RAM touch 50 C when i strest test-ing.
Either you tune your timings or might be increasing RAM voltage or SOC voltage.

When i recently updated BIOS with beta BIOS from Gigabyte (F7a-Aorus Master), my profile/setting which is stable in previous BIOS with SOC 1.1 V needs a voltage bump to 1.125 V to became stable.
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post #13 of 28 (permalink) Old 09-13-2019, 05:28 AM
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If you notice that your memory settings only become unstable when gaming (where they are exposed to hotter air in the case from CPU/GPU exhausts); you may want to take a look at your temperature sensitive settings and see if loosening them may help. For starters, please look in your bios or a tool like Asrock Timing Configurator that works with Ryzen 3000 and post what your "tRFC" and "tREFI" values are. Given that you are already hitting 51C, they are likely already loose, but it is always a good idea to check the easy to change settings before you start mucking around with secondary/tertiary settings.

I'm not familiar with Ryzen 3000's memory tuning method or options, but for reference, my DDR4 4000 16/18/18/38 memory is stable with my i5-6600k with tRFC = 300, and tREFI = 65355 only if the memory is kept below 31C. Loosening the tRFC and tREFI to some 700 and 20000 respectively allowed me to be stable up to 45C IIRC with HCI Memtest and karhu memtest.
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post #14 of 28 (permalink) Old 09-14-2019, 04:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote: Originally Posted by shellashock View Post
If you notice that your memory settings only become unstable when gaming (where they are exposed to hotter air in the case from CPU/GPU exhausts); you may want to take a look at your temperature sensitive settings and see if loosening them may help. For starters, please look in your bios or a tool like Asrock Timing Configurator that works with Ryzen 3000 and post what your "tRFC" and "tREFI" values are. Given that you are already hitting 51C, they are likely already loose, but it is always a good idea to check the easy to change settings before you start mucking around with secondary/tertiary settings.

I'm not familiar with Ryzen 3000's memory tuning method or options, but for reference, my DDR4 4000 16/18/18/38 memory is stable with my i5-6600k with tRFC = 300, and tREFI = 65355 only if the memory is kept below 31C. Loosening the tRFC and tREFI to some 700 and 20000 respectively allowed me to be stable up to 45C IIRC with HCI Memtest and karhu memtest.
I don't have/can't find trefi in my bios, but i've fixed it for now by loosening TRFC from 294 to 304 and by reducing voltage from 1.485 to 1.44. Stable 1000% HCI.

Anyway i still don't get why people don't get ram as much hot as i do when they pump voltage over 1.45...

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post #15 of 28 (permalink) Old 09-14-2019, 06:35 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Synoxia View Post
I don't have/can't find trefi in my bios, but i've fixed it for now by loosening TRFC from 294 to 304 and by reducing voltage from 1.485 to 1.44. Stable 1000% HCI.

Anyway i still don't get why people don't get ram as much hot as i do when they pump voltage over 1.45...
Good to hear you are stabilizing your system! If you can't find tREFI, it may be listed as DRAM Refresh Intervals or something like that for Asus motherboards (based on this thread: https://rog.asus.com/forum/showthrea...alculate-tREFI). In any case, tREFI should be in the 10000 unit range (prolly 15000-25000 right now in your bios, max is 65535) and should be easy to identify. You can always try lowering it, but I find increasing tRFC (time allowed for memory cells to recharge voltage level) fixes temp related instability far more often than decreasing tREFI (time memory cells are allowed to be active for before recharging commences) does.

As for why most people (enthusiasts at least) don't have memory this hot, it is almost guaranteed that anyone that is pushing 1.45V+ will have a fan (high speed is optional) blowing on the sticks. If you are using voltages this high, you are probably using memory that is operating at high speeds and/or tight timings and this both generates lots of heat (relative to stock DDR4 anyway) and lowers the margins for stability enough that a fan over the sticks is good insurance against heat related memory instability. Even a relatively slow intake case fan mounted in the top of the case that keeps hot stagnant air from forming around the sticks can do wonders for keeping your memory cool; thus most people will just throw a fan in there and be done with it. As an added bonus, a fan blowing on the RAM is usually also supplying cool air to the CPU cooler (if an air cooler tower) and maybe the top VRM heatsink depending on motherboard layout.

Last edited by shellashock; 09-14-2019 at 06:43 PM.
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post #16 of 28 (permalink) Old 09-15-2019, 08:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote: Originally Posted by shellashock View Post
Good to hear you are stabilizing your system! If you can't find tREFI, it may be listed as DRAM Refresh Intervals or something like that for Asus motherboards (based on this thread: https://rog.asus.com/forum/showthrea...alculate-tREFI). In any case, tREFI should be in the 10000 unit range (prolly 15000-25000 right now in your bios, max is 65535) and should be easy to identify. You can always try lowering it, but I find increasing tRFC (time allowed for memory cells to recharge voltage level) fixes temp related instability far more often than decreasing tREFI (time memory cells are allowed to be active for before recharging commences) does.

As for why most people (enthusiasts at least) don't have memory this hot, it is almost guaranteed that anyone that is pushing 1.45V+ will have a fan (high speed is optional) blowing on the sticks. If you are using voltages this high, you are probably using memory that is operating at high speeds and/or tight timings and this both generates lots of heat (relative to stock DDR4 anyway) and lowers the margins for stability enough that a fan over the sticks is good insurance against heat related memory instability. Even a relatively slow intake case fan mounted in the top of the case that keeps hot stagnant air from forming around the sticks can do wonders for keeping your memory cool; thus most people will just throw a fan in there and be done with it. As an added bonus, a fan blowing on the RAM is usually also supplying cool air to the CPU cooler (if an air cooler tower) and maybe the top VRM heatsink depending on motherboard layout.
I thought intake on top did nothing... now they are helpful instead? I thought that i could also remove the dust filter from my phanteks case if that makes any difference.... probably should cut the whole metal thing and just put a quality dust filter

http://www.phanteks.com/images/produ...k/Pro-M-10.jpg see, my case comes with front mesh + dust filter

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post #17 of 28 (permalink) Old 09-15-2019, 09:03 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Synoxia View Post
I thought intake on top did nothing... now they are helpful instead? I thought that i could also remove the dust filter from my phanteks case if that makes any difference.... probably should cut the whole metal thing and just put a quality dust filter

http://www.phanteks.com/images/produ...k/Pro-M-10.jpg see, my case comes with front mesh + dust filter
Ultimately it comes down to how your case and motherboard layout match up. If you can place a fan in a front panel mounting spot that blows directly parallel with your CPU cooler fan, you often see better CPU temp results than top panel intake fan blowing *past* the CPU cooler's fan and into the GPU compartment. Both provide cool air to the CPU and RAM, but the layout of the fans relative to the case and motherboard will determine how effective each layout is.

Judging by your picture in the OP, I'd wager your 120/140mm fan in the top front panel position is doing a good job of bringing cool air to the CPU/RAM compartment WITH the important caveat that you will have minimal airflow for the second stick of RAM under the D15 front fan. I think putting that Silent Wings 2 fan you mentioned as a top intake roughly around the front/middle section of the case in order to direct the airpath directly through the DIMM slot zone will help a great deal in keeping your RAM cool; especially because GSkill memory sticks have the chips attached to the back side of the heatsink (thus the cool air hitting the front of the first stick's heatsink isn't as effective at cooling as airflow from the side cooling the heatsink face the chips are connected to).

As for cutting your case up and/or changing filters, you can definitely experiment with removing dust filters and see if the restriction drop helps your temps; but I believe the crux of the problem is the tower heatsink obscuring the memory from getting solid airflow around it to remove hot stagnant air. This is dealt with better by ensuring air can flow top to bottom past the sticks via a top intake fan rather than increasing front facing airflow that all gets sucked into the CPU fan anyway. A good resource to help you with planning this would be doyll's Ways to Better Cooling Mega Thread; particularly the info about case temp monitoring, fan filters and dremeling the back case grilles if you're into case modding.

Hope this helps!
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post #18 of 28 (permalink) Old 09-17-2019, 09:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote: Originally Posted by shellashock View Post
Ultimately it comes down to how your case and motherboard layout match up. If you can place a fan in a front panel mounting spot that blows directly parallel with your CPU cooler fan, you often see better CPU temp results than top panel intake fan blowing *past* the CPU cooler's fan and into the GPU compartment. Both provide cool air to the CPU and RAM, but the layout of the fans relative to the case and motherboard will determine how effective each layout is.

Judging by your picture in the OP, I'd wager your 120/140mm fan in the top front panel position is doing a good job of bringing cool air to the CPU/RAM compartment WITH the important caveat that you will have minimal airflow for the second stick of RAM under the D15 front fan. I think putting that Silent Wings 2 fan you mentioned as a top intake roughly around the front/middle section of the case in order to direct the airpath directly through the DIMM slot zone will help a great deal in keeping your RAM cool; especially because GSkill memory sticks have the chips attached to the back side of the heatsink (thus the cool air hitting the front of the first stick's heatsink isn't as effective at cooling as airflow from the side cooling the heatsink face the chips are connected to).

As for cutting your case up and/or changing filters, you can definitely experiment with removing dust filters and see if the restriction drop helps your temps; but I believe the crux of the problem is the tower heatsink obscuring the memory from getting solid airflow around it to remove hot stagnant air. This is dealt with better by ensuring air can flow top to bottom past the sticks via a top intake fan rather than increasing front facing airflow that all gets sucked into the CPU fan anyway. A good resource to help you with planning this would be doyll's Ways to Better Cooling Mega Thread; particularly the info about case temp monitoring, fan filters and dremeling the back case grilles if you're into case modding.

Hope this helps!
I left HCI memtest over night with a 1.46 voltage, so far seems like that fan helped a lot even if it's not directly intaking on the ram thanks to phanteks mount, they could move the fan screws a bit near the back of the case (so it would blow over RAM).
I've put in the middle instead of front because i thought that the D15 fan would absorb all of that cool air.... anyway so far so good temp didn't exceed 47.5 where i was getting 51c. Could it be that the loosened timings are heating up less than the previous ram OC?
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post #19 of 28 (permalink) Old 09-17-2019, 04:14 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by shellashock View Post
you may want to take a look at your temperature sensitive settings and see if loosening them may help. For starters, please look in your bios or a tool like Asrock Timing Configurator that works with Ryzen 3000 and post what your "tRFC" and "tREFI" values are. Given that you are already hitting 51C, they are likely already loose,

My DDR4 4000 16/18/18/38 memory is stable with my i5-6600k with tRFC = 300, and tREFI = 65355 only if the memory is kept below 31C. Loosening the tRFC and tREFI to some 700 and 20000 respectively allowed me to be stable up to 45C IIRC with HCI Memtest and karhu memtest.
Yes we don't have access to tREFI values saddly~
Ryzen RAM OC is quite different then on intels counterpart saddly, we can readout tREF and it's ns , but on ryzen IMC the math of tRFC is more important
Boards do predict and insert latency by themself without saying, for correcting unstable timings like too strict tRC and tRAS
(it's only noticable on latency tests)

As The Pook mentioned quite well:
Quote:
the more aggressive your RAM OC is the more sensitive it'll be to temp. either back off the OC or get better airflow. I'm at 1.5v and generally I'm 40-45c.
On Ryzen, across all of them ~ vSOC is the biggest heat and wattage increaser out of everything

About the Fans , two things
Silents Wings are HF (High Flow) designed FANs , their air pattern is nearly identical to what you see on a Bladeless Dyson Fan
It's circular spreading like a vortex from outside to inside

Quote: Originally Posted by shellashock View Post
I think putting that Silent Wings 2 fan you mentioned as a top intake roughly around the front/middle section of the case in order to direct the airpath directly through the DIMM slot zone will help a great deal in keeping your RAM cool; especially because GSkill memory sticks have the chips attached to the back side of the heatsink (thus the cool air hitting the front of the first stick's heatsink isn't as effective at cooling as airflow from the side cooling the heatsink face the chips are connected to).
^ this is a very well tip - keep in mind the SW2s are HF fans - their work is to spread as much air as possible, but their pressure is weak

I personally think Phanteks does a good job with their Air Filters, but you may want to test if it's not too restrictive | or just make a Photo of it in the air, seeing how well we can see through it

Quote: Originally Posted by shellashock View Post
As for why most people (enthusiasts at least) don't have memory this hot, it is almost guaranteed that anyone that is pushing 1.45V+ will have a fan (high speed is optional) blowing on the sticks.
^ this is the only thing i halfway agree on, but you are absolutely right on the remain parts
A fan at the top of the case is very useful, it doesn't have to be those tiny mini dual 80mm ram cooling kits

Idk where people started to say it doesn't matter, as it does help a lot
Been running my Hynix MFR between 1.5-1.56
(do not go over 1.5 unless you can tame it with higher CAD_BUS resistance!)
Ram instability varies a lot between DIMM Chip Manufactures and so does heat vary between the harshness of your timings + the designed ram cooler

Overall they do get unstable at 42c , when is scalable to your harshness of timings
Some hit perfect stability at 46c , some up to even 48c
But it depends how borderline you OC , over 42c the "chance of error'ing" starts to increase and increase

If rly nothing helps, reverse your airflow like suggested
At least try, should only take you 10min max to turn all adjust all the fans

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post #20 of 28 (permalink) Old 09-17-2019, 09:31 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Synoxia View Post
I left HCI memtest over night with a 1.46 voltage, so far seems like that fan helped a lot even if it's not directly intaking on the ram thanks to phanteks mount, they could move the fan screws a bit near the back of the case (so it would blow over RAM).
I've put in the middle instead of front because i thought that the D15 fan would absorb all of that cool air.... anyway so far so good temp didn't exceed 47.5 where i was getting 51c. Could it be that the loosened timings are heating up less than the previous ram OC?
I am not familiar with Ryzen 3000 so I can't tell if that error in Ryzen DRAM Calculator is from you manually stopping it or if it was from instability; but it doesn't tell us if the profile is stable and no timings are visible (due to the stress test mode?). Assuming that your settings are the same as before (tRFC from 294 -> 304, voltage from 1.485 -> 1.46V), I could see a 3-4C drop from loosening your settings (voltage in particular) being reasonable. Veii makes a good point in that the Silent Wings 2 fan may not be doing much for your memory as the lowish pressure and significant distance between the top of the case and the DIMM slots could lead to air parting around the air cooler instead of flowing through the DIMM slots. You can check this by putting a thermometer or thermocouple probe in between the two memory sticks and measuring the air temp to see if it is significantly higher than case temperature.

Speaking of which, I can't seem to find any mention of the air temperature in your case. Judging by the HWInfo DDR4 idle temp stats, your case air temp is about 32C. Is this close to the ambient temperature in the room your computer is, and if not, how much is the difference? With all the fans you have setup, I would suspect your case/filters are too restrictive for the fans installed if you have a significant (7-10C+ higher than ambient) delta. If your room is just that hot, increasing the airflow flowing to the memory by making a duct from your top intake fan (preferably 120/140mm for greater CFM at same SP) to the DIMM slots with some rigid craft paper or thin cardboard will probably be the best you can manage for handling temps unless you are willing to reduce your OC/timings to allow for lower vSOC/vDIMM.

You can also try reversing your fans like Veii mentioned to have all fans blowing back to front and experiment with top intake vs exhaust. This may help with eliminating any dead air pockets around the DIMM slots or limit contamination of the CPU/memory air stream with GPU heated air. Between ducting and experimental fan placement, you should be able to find a sweet spot for memory, CPU and GPU temps that fits your use case.

@Veii , thanks for the info and review! I do not have Ryzen gear so I have been trying to interpolate my knowledge of Intel memory OC + general DDR4 knowledge with what little I have read about Ryzen memory OC on OCN; thus I appreciate your educating statements.

As for the fan blowing on memory sticks comment, I haven't seen many people on OCN or otherwise that use personally tuned memory OCs with voltage over 1.45V and not have a fan; but this is definitely an enthusiast perspective and it is ignoring the likely possibility of someone purchasing a DDR4 4000+ bin that pushes 1.5V VDIMM in XMP because they want high end memory for a top of the line gaming rig. This will probably become more common now that Ryzen processors gain so much from well tuned memory and IF. I still believe that anyone using 1.45V+ VDIMM with temps under 40-45C are probably using a fan to cool the sticks or have seriously low ambient temps; but the absolute stick temp isn't important until it starts impacting stability (razer thin stability margins are usually reserved for benchmark runs or enthusiast bragging rights anyway).
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