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post #1 of 32 (permalink) Old 11-16-2019, 07:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Is Top tier cooling market "stagnant"?

I can't see any better cooler than d15,dark rock pro... etc... all of these perform basically the same +/- 2c... or am i wrong? Maybe the culprit are asetek aios, high end air coolers don't need to improve if they are better than most AIOs

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post #2 of 32 (permalink) Old 11-16-2019, 07:17 AM
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Suppose it's happening due to the need for such things declining? TDP's lowering, overclocking limited , stock performance greater than software can leverage? Just spitballing here.
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post #3 of 32 (permalink) Old 11-16-2019, 07:22 AM
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You've got stuff like Alphacool Eisbaer or fresh Arctic Liquid Freezer II. Recently got my hands on LF II 360mm, lowered temperatures by 5-6C on each core, compared to lapped Raijintek Tisis (which has pretty much the same performance as Noctua D15).

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post #4 of 32 (permalink) Old 11-16-2019, 08:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote: Originally Posted by cssorkinman View Post
Suppose it's happening due to the need for such things declining? TDP's lowering, overclocking limited , stock performance greater than software can leverage? Just spitballing here.
AMD processors scale till -56c.

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post #5 of 32 (permalink) Old 11-16-2019, 09:31 AM
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GN's 3950X LN2 video showed clock scaling down to -91C, possibly further.

The plateau is due to quite a few factors:

Form factor (Heatpipe count, single or dual tower, height, width, offset, etc.)
Weight (Can't make it too heavy)
Cost (Has to be competitive)
High-volume capable (has to be able to be manufactured effectively with low tolerances)
Fans (How do you want your cooler to be presented to the press?)
Installation (can't be too complicated, and has to be idiot-proof and sturdy to keep RMAs under control)
Etc.

Today's coolers are basically the result of all of the above factors, and the result is what you see in the market today. In order to break that plateau, someone has to go back to the drawing board and completely reinvent the air cooler. I remember reading an article a week or two ago about a thermal transfer medium NASA created that's many times more effective than what we're using now, and that does bring promise. There are also experimental materials like graphene that have really good thermal conductivity. However, these things are still in the prototype stage in development. Trying to mass produce these things at a cost isn't possible right now.

Your "good" CLCs may perform better than flagship air coolers, but it's usually due to having faster fans. The actually good CLCs, which are more like AIOs, can offer better performance than flagship air coolers at similar fan speeds, but the difference usually isn't that drastic, like 5-6C on average. A temperature difference that small won't usually make any difference in overclock stability or headroom unless your overclock is on the fringe already in which case I'd recommend lowering clocks and voltage to something more manageable.

Despite liquid cooling being more complicated, expensive, and less reliable, it does offer more cooling potential because you have more flexibility with surface area. Though, it is dependent on the case you have. And that right there is another very compelling reason why air cooling has stagnated. If you want lower temperatures, then get wet.

Then, you have thermal density, which is the great equalizer for these coolers. If you can't effectively pull the heat away from the processor (Heatpipes, coldplates, fin design), it doesn't matter how much radiator surface area you have, it's not going to scale very well. We can see this with MO-RA3 1260s with overclocked 9900Ks still reaching high temperatures. Trying to pull 230W+ off of something the size of a nickel is the challenge right now, and it's only going to get worse from here as transistors get smaller.

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post #6 of 32 (permalink) Old 11-16-2019, 10:04 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Synoxia View Post
I can't see any better cooler than d15,dark rock pro... etc... all of these perform basically the same +/- 2c... or am i wrong? Maybe the culprit are asetek aios, high end air coolers don't need to improve if they are better than most AIOs
Since about the invention of a heat pipe.

They won't magically be able to make some aluminium2 or copper2, meaning unless you want to mount some gigantic heavy cooler you're not going to get better cooling performance as there are no better affordable existing materials to use for coolers.

Sure they could do more function over form on some coolers, use more heat pipes but in the end the difference probably isn't big at all and they do want to keep selling "cool" looking products not industrial one even though there are people who would rather buy a great industrial cooler instead of some of these consumer trash.

Plus modern silicon chips are not limited as much by cooler capacity to dissipate heat, more by their own heatspreader and getting heat away from the chip fast enough. More heat pipes can help if you can fit them.

---

AIO/CLC... is a meh product overall, made to serve those who want to fiddle with radiator install rather than learn to install an aircooler and find the AIO/CLC cooling plate somehow easier to install. Have fun with leaks and warranties on those. Plus they tend to need to be replaced = more money to sellers as air coolers will likely outlive you, buy one, use for life.
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post #7 of 32 (permalink) Old 11-16-2019, 11:50 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Synoxia View Post
AMD processors scale till -56c.
Yes, but scaling within the range of what is possible with the coolers we are discussing here is very , very limited with Ryzen. The difference between a $20 air cooler and a $300 , 480 mm custom loop was probably less than 100 mhz as an all core OC on my 1800X . It's just that close to it's voltage wall - example 4.0ghz stable was 1.356 volts 4.1ghz 1.425 4175mhz ( not fully stable) 1.52v+ With most of my FX cpu's it was about 800 mhz gained.
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post #8 of 32 (permalink) Old 11-16-2019, 12:09 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by airisom2 View Post

Then, you have thermal density, which is the great equalizer for these coolers. If you can't effectively pull the heat away from the processor (Heatpipes, coldplates, fin design), it doesn't matter how much radiator surface area you have, it's not going to scale very well. We can see this with MO-RA3 1260s with overclocked 9900Ks still reaching high temperatures. Trying to pull 230W+ off of something the size of a nickel is the challenge right now, and it's only going to get worse from here as transistors get smaller.
As transistors get smaller won't the required operating voltages go down?
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post #9 of 32 (permalink) Old 11-16-2019, 12:29 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by airisom2 View Post
GN's 3950X LN2 video showed clock scaling down to -91C, possibly further.

The plateau is due to quite a few factors:

Form factor (Heatpipe count, single or dual tower, height, width, offset, etc.)
Weight (Can't make it too heavy)
Cost (Has to be competitive)
High-volume capable (has to be able to be manufactured effectively with low tolerances)
Fans (How do you want your cooler to be presented to the press?)
Installation (can't be too complicated, and has to be idiot-proof and sturdy to keep RMAs under control)
Etc.

Today's coolers are basically the result of all of the above factors, and the result is what you see in the market today. In order to break that plateau, someone has to go back to the drawing board and completely reinvent the air cooler. I remember reading an article a week or two ago about a thermal transfer medium NASA created that's many times more effective than what we're using now, and that does bring promise. There are also experimental materials like graphene that have really good thermal conductivity. However, these things are still in the prototype stage in development. Trying to mass produce these things at a cost isn't possible right now.

Your "good" CLCs may perform better than flagship air coolers, but it's usually due to having faster fans. The actually good CLCs, which are more like AIOs, can offer better performance than flagship air coolers at similar fan speeds, but the difference usually isn't that drastic, like 5-6C on average. A temperature difference that small won't usually make any difference in overclock stability or headroom unless your overclock is on the fringe already in which case I'd recommend lowering clocks and voltage to something more manageable.

Despite liquid cooling being more complicated, expensive, and less reliable, it does offer more cooling potential because you have more flexibility with surface area. Though, it is dependent on the case you have. And that right there is another very compelling reason why air cooling has stagnated. If you want lower temperatures, then get wet.

Then, you have thermal density, which is the great equalizer for these coolers. If you can't effectively pull the heat away from the processor (Heatpipes, coldplates, fin design), it doesn't matter how much radiator surface area you have, it's not going to scale very well. We can see this with MO-RA3 1260s with overclocked 9900Ks still reaching high temperatures. Trying to pull 230W+ off of something the size of a nickel is the challenge right now, and it's only going to get worse from here as transistors get smaller.



Which one is the actually good CLC then?









Quote: Originally Posted by BroadPwns View Post
You've got stuff like Alphacool Eisbaer or fresh Arctic Liquid Freezer II. Recently got my hands on LF II 360mm, lowered temperatures by 5-6C on each core, compared to lapped Raijintek Tisis (which has pretty much the same performance as Noctua D15).

LF2, is that an Asetek unit? Just the rad is slightly thicker?

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post #10 of 32 (permalink) Old 11-16-2019, 12:39 PM
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According to Arctic, it's their own project, nothing comes from Asetek.

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