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I got old Intel instead of Ryzen 3000

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post #61 of 90 (permalink) Old 07-20-2019, 10:23 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Alex132 View Post
Why?




To restate what has been said before: Even if you were to go with a 3700X, X570 and 32GB DDR4 you'd still be looking at CAD1100-1300. Considering he stated this is to tide him over until the next generation is more tempting to go for, I don't see your point other than to be abrasive and convince people that your opinion is the correct one while disregarding any circumstances.


Additionally, when he does resell it - it will lose less value than a new system would.




Citation required. Please find a Ryzen 3700X system for CAD750 incl tax. Also, the power draw thing is very moot, saving a few cents on a power bill should not be an influencing factor which may result in purchasing a potentially worse product.





Enforcing rules because you don't agree with someone's opinion is extremely dangerous line to tread.











Well, your words were literally:

Ergo my comparison. Even a 2500k used will cost more than $100 so I assumed you were thinking of a CPU even worse than that.

Thread is a trainwreck but... there was a guy that sold 4 2500ks for $47 each I think. This was months ago too. They're cheap now.


And he's right, a 2500k in 1440p is totally apples and oranges to an 8 core on 4k. I'm not stating that those were the terms of the original discussion, but he right about that.


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post #62 of 90 (permalink) Old 07-20-2019, 11:01 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by 1096bimu View Post
I don't like mainstream, because they are mainstream.
I don't like dual channel, because ram on either side of the CPU looks more symmetrical and more high-end.
I don't like PGA sockets because it's a plastic piece, and that looks worse than the all-metal LGA socket.
Wow.... Just wow.

I am not mad, nor should anyone be mad at your justification at running older kit. Personally I just purchased a 6850x and an Asus x99-a Mobo with 32GB of DDR4 for $250 because the CPU was "Broken", I was able to painstakingly bend a few pins back in Place and Fix a UEFI Error by Pulling out the CMOS Chip and Erasing it with my CMOS Reader and Flashing a fresh UEFI onto it, and now I got a platform that still goes for ridiculously High Prices for cheaper than I could have gotten me a 3600x for. Of course I am only using it as a Storage Server and Cable Card TV Recording System, and it works great for that, but will probably sell it in the near future for probably double what I paid for it to someone who thinks like you, who values the way the socket looks Metal, and likes the way the Symmetry looks! LOL!!!!

Sorry, not usually an *******, just couldn't help myself here....

Also I would like to point out that, just because the Reviewers have no idea how to Overclock and Tinker with Ryzen parts doesn't mean there aren't awesome ways to do so. I agree that Overclocking an Intel part is much more straight forward because its how its been done for years, and its pretty easy to get a 5% gain or more out of them by hitting a multiplier and voltage setting, and OCing the Cache a little, I won't deny that is fun. But I have to point out that it is still possible to tune the Ryzen parts to also get more performance for your particular scenario, its just done differently then an Intel Enthusiast is used too. You not only have PBO to play with, but now with the 3rd gen parts we have Per CCX Overclocking to play with that lets you get the best out of both High Threaded Situations and Lightly threaded situations, you now get an IF Setting to play with, and of Course OCing Memory is now becoming more exciting on a 3rd gen Ryzen part too, so there is still plenty for an enthusiast to tinker with. The Reviewers just haven't seem to figure that out yet, well De8auer has, but you get my point.

Anyways, that is an awesome platform and you shouldn't feel bad about getting a good deal for it, and people shouldn't give you **** for liking it, but you also shouldn't pretend like the Ryzen parts aren't a better option for most users, even for gaming, unless of course they want symmetry and metal on their CPU Socket as well!!!

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post #63 of 90 (permalink) Old 07-20-2019, 11:37 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by andrews2547 View Post
No. It's in the OP. A 2700X would be ~$325 more and I really doubt a 1700 will be $325 cheaper than a 2700X.
That says $100 more for a 2700x. A 2700 is $100 cheaper. So about the same price.

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post #64 of 90 (permalink) Old 07-20-2019, 12:47 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by nvidiaftw12 View Post
Thread is a trainwreck but... there was a guy that sold 4 2500ks for $47 each I think. This was months ago too. They're cheap now.
Interesting, they're still charging way too much for them over here.


Quote: Originally Posted by nvidiaftw12 View Post
And he's right, a 2500k in 1440p is totally apples and oranges to an 8 core on 4k. I'm not stating that those were the terms of the original discussion, but he right about that.
To be fair he said(m)any old Intel CPU - and it was the only datapoint I had.





Quote: Originally Posted by oreonutz View Post
who values the way the socket looks Metal, and likes the way the Symmetry looks! LOL!!!!

Sorry, not usually an *******, just couldn't help myself here....
I don't see how the symmetry is invalid? I way prefer the look of X79, X99, X299, etc. with the DIMM banks on either side of the CPU socket. It's much more aesthetically pleasing.



Quote: Originally Posted by oreonutz View Post
Also I would like to point out that, just because the Reviewers have no idea how to Overclock and Tinker with Ryzen parts doesn't mean there aren't awesome ways to do so.
Quote: Originally Posted by oreonutz View Post
But I have to point out that it is still possible to tune the Ryzen parts to also get more performance for your particular scenario, its just done differently then an Intel Enthusiast is used too. You not only have PBO to play with, but now with the 3rd gen parts we have Per CCX Overclocking to play with that lets you get the best out of both High Threaded Situations and Lightly threaded situations, you now get an IF Setting to play with, and of Course OCing Memory is now becoming more exciting on a 3rd gen Ryzen part too, so there is still plenty for an enthusiast to tinker with. The Reviewers just haven't seem to figure that out yet, well De8auer has, but you get my point.

I saw this with VEGA a fair amount too, what is it with comments about "reviewers don't know how to overclock these products - you shouldn't trust their results!" It's weird and borderline conspiracy theorist. And a lot of the time many people don't want to bother with more intricate settings that are complex and different.





Quote: Originally Posted by oreonutz View Post
I agree that Overclocking an Intel part is much more straight forward because its how its been done for years, and its pretty easy to get a 5% gain or more out of them by hitting a multiplier and voltage setting, and OCing the Cache a little, I won't deny that is fun.
I have seen this a bit - how overclocking got easier - and honestly it was harder to overclock my 9900K than my 2500k. I found the 9900K is a lot more sensitive to going too far one way or another on specific settings. Resulting in a lot of trial and error with voltages, frequencies and other settings. And weirdly enough I'd say my Phenom II was even easier than either of them to overclock.


But importantly harder to overclock =/= better. I do see the inference that difficulty in overclocking is better around here sometimes.

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post #65 of 90 (permalink) Old 07-20-2019, 01:40 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Alex132 View Post

I don't see how the symmetry is invalid? I way prefer the look of X79, X99, X299, etc. with the DIMM banks on either side of the CPU socket. It's much more aesthetically pleasing.
I am sorry, I forget that we also are now including the Martha Stewart's of PC Building among Enthusiasts now. Its up to you what you assign value to in your PC Platform, and I shouldn't knock you for that, so your right, if you find it valuable, then to you it is valuable, its just funny to me, as I come from a time when the value was all in Performance. Don't get me wrong we like to make things look good too, but that was always an after thought after performance, and in no way Dictated the platform we were choosing, but these are different times now, so my bad...

Quote: Originally Posted by Alex132 View Post

I saw this with VEGA a fair amount too, what is it with comments about "reviewers don't know how to overclock these products - you shouldn't trust their results!" It's weird and borderline conspiracy theorist. And a lot of the time many people don't want to bother with more intricate settings that are complex and different.
Woooo, slow down there buddy. I can see how its easy to just lump everyone in together, but you will never catch me peddling conspiracies about not being able to trust reviewers results. I am sorry if that's what you inferred from my statement, but that was not at all my intent. I am simply stating that there are gains to be had, but because most of us get our knowledge from reviewers, especially those of us who don't actually own the hardware and are just trying to stay in the loop, certain narratives and ideas start to become the common belief among enthusiasts, and they are not always necessarily the truth. I am not at all saying that the was the reviewers intent, for god sakes they had maybe 2 weeks to try to review all angles of 6 Different SKU's, 4 from AMD, 2 From NVIDIA, and had to include Dozens more parts with relevant data. That makes it hard to learn all the nuances of every part and become expert on them to disseminate that knowledge to the masses, and I 100 Percent get that. Its just unfortunate that sometimes ideas from that can take on a life of its own, even when it may not be 100 Percent true. It is indeed a pain in ass to OC a Ryzen 3000 Part, and if OCing the Traditional way you do end up loosing performance in certain scenarios, that is absolutely true. But what isn't commonly known is that there are Many other ways to Overclock these parts to get even better performance than stock out of these chips, its just not in any way what we are used too, and it would be awesome if that knowledge could spread a little more to let the Enthusiast who gets there Ryzen 3000 Chip know that he can indeed Overclock it. Again, slow down with the accusations my friend, just because one criticizes a field, does not mean one is peddling conspiracies about said field.

Quote: Originally Posted by Alex132 View Post
But importantly harder to overclock =/= better. I do see the inference that difficulty in overclocking is better around here sometimes.
I also was not implying that the way to OC Ryzen was better than Intel, to be clear. I actually quite enjoy OCing on the Intel Platform, even the 9900k which I agree can be a b*tch. I own way to many CPU's to count, and test even more because its part of my job, and I love the intricacies with tuning MOST of them. If you are a gamer with money in your pocket to burn, and you just needed the highest amount of FPS, damn everything else including money, and you were my client, I would absolutely still build you a 9900k system and then OC that baby to 5.2 to 5.3Ghz All Core, and Do My Best to get your First 2 Cores To even Higher. In my testing this STILL DOMINATES the 3800x/3900x for pure FPS and Frame Time, and when running 1080p at Medium Settings with a 240hz Monitor in Competitive titles, The 9900k/9700k really does drive that panel better then the 3800x/3900x system. I personally do have a BIAS toward AMD for many reasons, but I can acknowledge that and look past it because I value real data for both myself and clients. But for most of my clients, playing at 1080 Ultra settings, and especially higher Resolutions with a 60 to 120hz panel, there is a negligible difference between the 2 platforms, I have done quite a few tests before the 3000 Series even came out, and I haven't found one person who could accurately guess which platform was which when the FPS wasn't on screen, and the 3000 series brings the difference even closer together. So when I can bring my clients a platform that has better support and longevity, equal or better performance in their applications, and Equal or Cheaper Total Platform price, then that decision is easy. Sometimes it does mean going Intel, before 2017 it was 100% of the time Intel because I personally COULD NOT STAND working with the FX Platform, or the Opteron Platform, but lately its been easier to recommend Red. Now as far as difficult Overclocking being better than easy overclocking, you again were inferring a message to my words that I was not implying. For most users having an easy way to overclock is obviously better in my eyes. I don't think just because something is harder that it is better. In fact you still will get more out of your processor Overclocking with Intel then you will with AMD. My Message was simply that there is a way to OC Ryzen that does actually give you a benefit contrary to popular opinion, and that was it. Most people do not realize that believe it or not, and that was my message. Anyways, I am going to get out of here, I just thought the reasons given were funny, but I forget its a new era of PC Enthusiasts where Looks matter more then performance. I guess I will have to get used to that...

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post #66 of 90 (permalink) Old 07-20-2019, 01:41 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by ozlay View Post
That says $100 more for a 2700x. A 2700 is $100 cheaper. So about the same price.

Quote: Originally Posted by 1096bimu View Post
Was planning on getting Ryzen 3000, but then I saw that 9900k is still king in games, Zen 2 while clearly superior in things like Cinebench, is not superior across the board, so that made me hesitate and didn't make the purchase the day it came out.
Instead I saw some rich asian student selling his used x99 kit to get Ryzen 3000, and I decided to get that instead.
It was a Rampage V Extreme, 5960x with 32GB Samsung 3000Mhz CL15, all for $550.

These are prices for CPU+mobo+32GB RAM only
All the new builds here have +13% HST included because I'm Canadian.
"IPC" here has no scientific proof, I basically looked at reviews and "eyeballed" them, they're estimates.
All the Ryzen build use memory that are ~$50 more expensive, because they are more sensitive to RAM performance.
I don't like mainstream, because they are mainstream.
I don't like dual channel, because ram on either side of the CPU looks more symmetrical and more high-end.
I don't like PGA sockets because it's a plastic piece, and that looks worse than the all-metal LGA socket.

Sure there will be some combination of cheap mobo+2700x or 3700x that will end up roughly the same price, but I don't think the extra performance is worth the other deficiencies.

Interesting observation here is that Ryzen 3000 isn't that good for mainstream, a 3800x build overall costs about the same as a 9900k build. But the 3900x is much cheaper and faster than the 9820x, that's great for AMD, and I hope Intel will drop their HEDT prices to compete better.

So that's why I decided to go with 5960x, so much cheaper. Forgot to include Threadripper here, but it'll be about same price as 3900x for same core count, lower performance but without the PGA and mainstream drawbacks. I don't think that would've made sense because I'm mostly just gaming here.

When it comes to games, what performance you need is heavily dependent on what performance do the consoles have. Next-gen consoles will have 8c zen2 but at like 3Ghz or something, cuz it'll have to be cheap and power efficient. With the 5960x you can easily power through the IPC difference when it's clocked that low. So chances are good that I won't be CPU limited in any of the next gen games. Of course, Unity engine games with god awful optimization will still be problematic.

Another reason I decided to not go all-out on Ryzen 3000 is how strong Intel's SunnyCove is in terms of IPC, even though their fab is still ****, we can tell it's very strong because 10nm SunnyCove cores are 4.1Ghz are beating 9th gen at 4.5-4.7 Ghz, I believe that's a bigger lead than Zen2. So chances are good that when Intel sorts out their ****ty fabs, they'll be at least on par with Zen3 in terms of IPC. So I believe that will be a better time to buy, whether I end up buying Zen3 or Intel 10th gen, at the very least there will be more competition, lower prices and better products. Right now AMD is kind of sandbagging Intel with Zen2, and charging relatively high prices.

Also, I very much enjoyed the manual tuning with Intel processor with tones of headroom, and a true flagship mobo. With Ryzen 3000 it's basically plug and play, not much you can do at all.

OP got it for $550. A 2700X build (as listed there) is ~$325 more.

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post #67 of 90 (permalink) Old 07-20-2019, 03:08 PM
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I also agree with his distaste for the plastic PGA socket. They get brittle over years of heavy use due to high socket temps and are prone to literally disintegrating when you try to swap CPUs.

I went with 3700x this time around because I don't want to lock into a 9900k with no upgrade path, but had to point that out, I wish AMD would step it up to a socket that can endure years of high temperatures and a handful of CPU swaps. I still bench and beat on my 775 board regularly and that socket is literally bulletproof.

(note this shouldn't matter for normal use, especially people who set and forget their CPU -- i'm talking 5 years of use and 5+ CPU swaps, but they do get brittle and come apart if you aren't careful)

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post #68 of 90 (permalink) Old 07-20-2019, 03:21 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by oreonutz View Post
I am sorry, I forget that we also are now including the Martha Stewart's of PC Building among Enthusiasts now. Its up to you what you assign value to in your PC Platform, and I shouldn't knock you for that, so your right, if you find it valuable, then to you it is valuable, its just funny to me, as I come from a time when the value was all in Performance. Don't get me wrong we like to make things look good too, but that was always an after thought after performance, and in no way Dictated the platform we were choosing, but these are different times now, so my bad...
I like the visual aspects of DIMM slots on either side of the CPU socket - I don't think there's anything wrong with that? It's akin to having a favourite color - it's a visual opinion and not objectively correct/incorrect. Motherboard visuals and performance do not have to be mutually exclusive.



Quote: Originally Posted by oreonutz View Post
I am simply stating that there are gains to be had, but because most of us get our knowledge from reviewers, especially those of us who don't actually own the hardware and are just trying to stay in the loop, certain narratives and ideas start to become the common belief among enthusiasts, and they are not always necessarily the truth. I am not at all saying that the was the reviewers intent, for god sakes they had maybe 2 weeks to try to review all angles of 6 Different SKU's, 4 from AMD, 2 From NVIDIA, and had to include Dozens more parts with relevant data. That makes it hard to learn all the nuances of every part and become expert on them to disseminate that knowledge to the masses, and I 100 Percent get that. Its just unfortunate that sometimes ideas from that can take on a life of its own, even when it may not be 100 Percent true. It is indeed a pain in ass to OC a Ryzen 3000 Part, and if OCing the Traditional way you do end up loosing performance in certain scenarios, that is absolutely true. But what isn't commonly known is that there are Many other ways to Overclock these parts to get even better performance than stock out of these chips, its just not in any way what we are used too, and it would be awesome if that knowledge could spread a little more to let the Enthusiast who gets there Ryzen 3000 Chip know that he can indeed Overclock it. Again, slow down with the accusations my friend, just because one criticizes a field, does not mean one is peddling conspiracies about said field.
Yeah I don't disagree with that at all, was just saying what I noticed as it happened a lot with the VEGA release.



Quote: Originally Posted by oreonutz View Post
I also was not implying that the way to OC Ryzen was better than Intel, to be clear. I actually quite enjoy OCing on the Intel Platform, even the 9900k which I agree can be a b*tch. I own way to many CPU's to count, and test even more because its part of my job, and I love the intricacies with tuning MOST of them. If you are a gamer with money in your pocket to burn, and you just needed the highest amount of FPS, damn everything else including money, and you were my client, I would absolutely still build you a 9900k system and then OC that baby to 5.2 to 5.3Ghz All Core, and Do My Best to get your First 2 Cores To even Higher. In my testing this STILL DOMINATES the 3800x/3900x for pure FPS and Frame Time, and when running 1080p at Medium Settings with a 240hz Monitor in Competitive titles, The 9900k/9700k really does drive that panel better then the 3800x/3900x system. I personally do have a BIAS toward AMD for many reasons, but I can acknowledge that and look past it because I value real data for both myself and clients. But for most of my clients, playing at 1080 Ultra settings, and especially higher Resolutions with a 60 to 120hz panel, there is a negligible difference between the 2 platforms, I have done quite a few tests before the 3000 Series even came out, and I haven't found one person who could accurately guess which platform was which when the FPS wasn't on screen, and the 3000 series brings the difference even closer together. So when I can bring my clients a platform that has better support and longevity, equal or better performance in their applications, and Equal or Cheaper Total Platform price, then that decision is easy. Sometimes it does mean going Intel, before 2017 it was 100% of the time Intel because I personally COULD NOT STAND working with the FX Platform, or the Opteron Platform, but lately its been easier to recommend Red. Now as far as difficult Overclocking being better than easy overclocking, you again were inferring a message to my words that I was not implying. For most users having an easy way to overclock is obviously better in my eyes. I don't think just because something is harder that it is better. In fact you still will get more out of your processor Overclocking with Intel then you will with AMD. My Message was simply that there is a way to OC Ryzen that does actually give you a benefit contrary to popular opinion, and that was it. Most people do not realize that believe it or not, and that was my message.
Don't really disagree with anything in that either, apart from having a bias towards a company which I personally don't understand.


I think you did miss that I was talking about OCN/PC community in general in addition to your post - but that wasn't really obvious from my side to be fair.



Quote: Originally Posted by oreonutz View Post
Anyways, I am going to get out of here, I just thought the reasons given were funny, but I forget its a new era of PC Enthusiasts where Looks matter more then performance. I guess I will have to get used to that...
Looks matter to me, and like I stated before they rarely are mutually exclusive options these days.

Of slight relevance would be me getting my Z390 Aorus Master; I do prefer other Z390 designs and wasn't a fan of Gigabyte from bad past experiences. However, it's features, components and performance made it too much of a compelling purchase against the rival motherboards.

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post #69 of 90 (permalink) Old 07-20-2019, 04:30 PM
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You chose an outdated architecture with more and more security flaws appearing instead of a newer architecture that has room for improvement.

DDR4 pricing? Fine tune a memory overclock and you can purchase lower speed kits and push them for even more performance.

To be fair, you're thinking like a gamer, and acting like one. Hurr durr this benchmark, that benchmark. It's not like there is a difference in unzipping a compressed file on 5960x and Ryzen 3? Oh woops, real world usage =/= gamer.
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post #70 of 90 (permalink) Old 07-20-2019, 04:53 PM
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