[WIRED] DeepMind Beats Pros at StarCraft in Another Triumph for Bots - Page 2 - Overclock.net - An Overclocking Community

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[WIRED] DeepMind Beats Pros at StarCraft in Another Triumph for Bots

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post #11 of 27 (permalink) Old 01-27-2019, 08:12 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by JackCY View Post
Really, some "no name" from Poland as champion... maybe he is really good but I would rather see StarCraft battle done in South Korea where the "pros" are.


Did.... did some one tell him Serral from Poland won all 4 WCS Grandmaster Titles last year and wiped the floor at Blizzcon World Championships against ALL the Korean Pros...?? I dont think he's been up to date on the most historic win of all time in Esports History.................


Maybe he did, since he used "" around the world Pros, either that or he doesnt know when to use air quotes.

Also, for those that are just talking before reading the actual deepmind article and watching the entire matchup series and videos, they LIMITED THE AI ON APM and SCREEN MOVEMENTS Per Min to HALF that of the pros capabilities. Where as the pros can easily hit APM's into the 600-800 during a match, sometimes over 1k APM, the AI was limited to around 300 or so and only 30 screen movements, where as Serral who won bilzzcon this yr against the Korean Pros had up to 60+ Screen Movements Per Min.

So the AI wasnt faster than the human players, it was straight up handicapped to be slower. They got out played, end of story.

EXCEPT in the last match that was live vs MaNa, that was an exhibition match, and MaNa won vs Deepmind when he was able to bug it out and make it predictable, thus exploitable. Go read and watch the matches for yourselfs, trust me, its more then just some spambot that does aim/micro hax.

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post #12 of 27 (permalink) Old 01-28-2019, 06:12 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Chachi123 View Post
Also, for those that are just talking before reading the actual deepmind article and watching the entire matchup series and videos, they LIMITED THE AI ON APM and SCREEN MOVEMENTS Per Min to HALF that of the pros capabilities. Where as the pros can easily hit APM's into the 600-800 during a match, sometimes over 1k APM, the AI was limited to around 300 or so and only 30 screen movements, where as Serral who won bilzzcon this yr against the Korean Pros had up to 60+ Screen Movements Per Min.

So the AI wasnt faster than the human players, it was straight up handicapped to be slower. They got out played, end of story.
If you comment like that, I expect that you saw the little "bursts" of performance from the AI.
It used the limitations to its advantages.
It "collected" action times to bursts, so instead of consistent APM, it do them all in the same time, creating a negative skew curve.
Those things are not something any human can do, even the pros.
They also didn't limit as you claim they did. They actually lifted a lot of those limitations..

Also top players are not even close to real 1K APM, by a long shot, without waste clicking. I have no idea where you got that from. They would average at about 400 APM, with small bursts.
If you want to learn why some of the APM isn't real APM, you can read this. Some actions can easily manipulate APM counts. You can find more examples or suggestions in other places how to manipulate that count without doing real clicks.


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post #13 of 27 (permalink) Old 01-28-2019, 09:14 AM
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https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/c..._of_wcs_grand/

500apm AVG over 25 mins.... to achieve THAT high of an avg, you SPIKE up to 1k apm, NOBODY said they avg 1kAPM, but to insinuate that they dont get up to 1kAPM is BS cuz i watched the finals live and he would get up to 1200 APM in the middle of a match when doing heavy micro at the 12-15 min mark. I dont know how longs its been since you've watched pros, but they gotten a lot better than they used to, this yr especially.

And it doesnt matter, cuz it only took 300 APM to destroy the AI when it MaNa went up to the Exibition match and beat it due to a AI loop in the latest version of the actual AI that has special limits on map looking as well.

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post #14 of 27 (permalink) Old 01-28-2019, 10:24 AM
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A bot with 100apm is going to be mechanically superior to a human. Those pro APM numbers are busy movements, they do not at all translate to efficient game inputs. There have been pro players who have achieved a high level of competition with as little as 90 apm, an AI with 300apm is vastly more capable than any human.

The contest with human players is always going to be against the depth and completeness of the training data. Beating a pro player in five matches is just the beginning. Tightening up all of the edge cases is the real challenge, and I expect for a while still human players will have the advantage given enough time to experiment with the AI.
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post #15 of 27 (permalink) Old 01-28-2019, 11:52 AM
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Where exactly is the intelligence?

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post #16 of 27 (permalink) Old 01-28-2019, 01:01 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Chachi123 View Post
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/c..._of_wcs_grand/

500apm AVG over 25 mins.... to achieve THAT high of an avg, you SPIKE up to 1k apm, NOBODY said they avg 1kAPM, but to insinuate that they dont get up to 1kAPM is BS cuz i watched the finals live and he would get up to 1200 APM in the middle of a match when doing heavy micro at the 12-15 min mark. I dont know how longs its been since you've watched pros, but they gotten a lot better than they used to, this yr especially.

And it doesnt matter, cuz it only took 300 APM to destroy the AI when it MaNa went up to the Exibition match and beat it due to a AI loop in the latest version of the actual AI that has special limits on map looking as well.
Two things.

One, 1K has been shown to be "fake", as you clearly didn't look at the links. They don't actually do 1K APM, but do much less by multi clicking the same action, especially when multi selecting as it register as several actions, so it is not real 1K APM. They also talk about it multiple times in the commentaries.

Secondly, you keep pointing at the exhibition match, but fail to remember that he top player lost 5 times, because they lifted the restrictions, as the AI was mimicking the extra clicks of the players (which they also stated, it was unnecessary, and was just to artificially raise APMs).
Weren't you the one praising that guy? Didn't he lost?


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post #17 of 27 (permalink) Old 01-28-2019, 01:59 PM
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The pros also lost because nobody bothered to tell them that they were fighting multiple versions of the actual Deepmind AI's. Both players even stated afterwords that it was a big factor in the loss because pros play the players, not the matchup, and all im saying is that to say this is some spam bot super APM machine is to entirely throw away all the hard work thats gone into this AI in the background, and those shouting how a human was never gonna win against it in the 1st place are missing the entire point of the tech and the demo itself. Im not FOR or AGAINST anyone, just people who think this is some off the shelf Macro/APM Spam bot, which it clearly is not.

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post #18 of 27 (permalink) Old 01-28-2019, 02:13 PM
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Even if you were to make the argument that it is an APM bot, you'd still have to explain how those clicks ended up in the right places.

This is a monumentally difficult task. Just ask the players who played against it, they're the ones who should convince you.

Really disappointed at the "well that doesn't count" armchair criticism. Even a moderately skilled player who can perform the basics of the game will out-strategize the basic computer scripting that came with the game. They didn't just win based on click frequency, they won because they understood the strategy of the game. That's huge.
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post #19 of 27 (permalink) Old 02-20-2019, 02:28 PM
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Bring the AI to actual games now, bored of stupid npcs..

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post #20 of 27 (permalink) Old 02-20-2019, 02:30 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by TUFinside View Post
Bring the AI to actual games now, bored of stupid npcs..
Game NPC AI decide to just park the main villain dragon at the noobs starting area, killing everyone instantly, all the time.
I'm sure that will end up well


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