[NASA] Black Hole Image Makes History; NASA Telescopes Coordinated Observations - Page 16 - Overclock.net - An Overclocking Community

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[NASA] Black Hole Image Makes History; NASA Telescopes Coordinated Observations

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post #151 of 157 (permalink) Old 04-29-2019, 11:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote: Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
No, it really is not more accurate. Why do you insist that time cannot curve when the math clearly shows curved time? It is mostly the time portion of the tensor that is curved with orbits around Earth, the space around Earth is almost perfectly flat. Taking an understanding of Special Relativity and deriving General Relativity is not easy, it took Einstein 10 years. Special Relativity only deals with flat spacetime, no gravity and no acceleration. You cannot use Special Relativity to understand black holes.

We use the term spacetime because it is a description of a 4D space, not because the curvature of space affects time in a reliable way or anything understandable like that. There really are four dimensions in the math, time is not separate and there is no passage of time. Everything is geometric, not dynamic. It is not easy to understand but saying something else because it makes more sense would be wrong.

You insist that this oversimplification is helpful to make it easier to understand, but if you get the wrong understanding from it it does not seem very helpful.

The nature of reality GR describes is so outside our experiance that pretty much no one can actually believe it intuitively. This is why this image of a black hole is so important. All our experiments keep showing the math is perfectly accurate but what the math seems to describe makes no sense so we need images to keep convincing ourselves its predictions really are true.
You and I could clearly have a much more interesting conversation outside the scope of this thread. I do not discount any of the points you are making, but I maintain that your level of understanding is beyond that which is appropriate for a laymen.

I do maintain that it is more accurate to say that space curves and time dilates rather than spacetime curves. It's easier to explain it that way, and time is really not something than can curve. IMO, if you think of time as something that curves, you are lacking some understanding. That said, I do not want to discount your statement. It is clearly well informed and equally valid, at least. You have clearly done more than enough research to carry this topic well beyond the scope of this thread.

As long as we're at it, 'Ill ask you a different question just for the sake of having a well informed discussion about astrophysics. Hopefully the mod will not object to a subject change.

What evidence are you aware of to prove that the universe is or is not expanding? What are your critiques of this understanding?

If we are going to measure eachother understanding of astrophysics, I think this is a good place to stare that can lead to a lot of relevant conversation. Should this thread go on because of it, MOD PLEASE MOVE OUT OF NEWS.

/thread

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post #152 of 157 (permalink) Old 04-30-2019, 10:52 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
Never mind, the black hole image, right, not General Relativity in general.



Black holes don't gobble up all matter. Matter has to hit them directly to enter, and black holes are very small. Almost all the matter that falls toward a black hole misses it and either gets shot off in another direction or goes into orbit around it (this is the disc we see in the image). They are just a source of gravity if you do not cross the event horizon. We have been hanging out next to our sun for a long time and haven't gotten gobbled up, it would be no different if we were orbiting a black hole the mass of our sun (except a lot colder).

The outreach of gravity generated from a super massive black hole would still extend further from the event horizon to prevent the coalescing of stars and should of consumed or dispersed G2. I'm, not talking about a black hole the size of our sun, but Sagittarius A…what if we where 36 light minutes from this black hole ? Would we be safe if we were behind the singularity ? ;p
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post #153 of 157 (permalink) Old 04-30-2019, 11:38 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by NewType88 View Post
The outreach of gravity generated from a super massive black hole would still extend further from the event horizon to prevent the coalescing of stars and should of consumed or dispersed G2. I'm, not talking about a black hole the size of our sun, but Sagittarius A…what if we where 36 light minutes from this black hole ? Would we be safe if we were behind the singularity ? ;p
at that distance the pull of gravity on you would be about 150 times stronger than the gravity we feel from the Earth.


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post #154 of 157 (permalink) Old 04-30-2019, 11:51 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
Why do you insist that time cannot curve when the math clearly shows curved time?
"Dilate" is a better term for what happens to time in relativistic frames of reference than "curve" because the word "curve" means a change in direction, which is something relevant to spatial dimensions and not time.

Space and time may both be dimensions in the tensor, but that does not make them the same thing, or make descriptions about them equally valid.
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post #155 of 157 (permalink) Old 04-30-2019, 04:59 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Mand12 View Post
"Dilate" is a better term for what happens to time in relativistic frames of reference than "curve" because the word "curve" means a change in direction, which is something relevant to spatial dimensions and not time.

Space and time may both be dimensions in the tensor, but that does not make them the same thing, or make descriptions about them equally valid.
I'm most likely beating a dead horse... But... Time dilation is an observed effect of moving objects that are at separate reference points. The complement of time dilation is length contraction. Not curvature of space.

Everything regarding spacetime is mathematical, and one can not look at it as space and time separately, as stated a gazillion times already... It's a completely different thing, because it's a 4D perspective, which we as humans cannot conceive directly. When talking about curves of spacetime, we're talking about a 4D 'object' that we cannot see, being curved. We say curved, because, our only reference is either 2D or 3D graphs, where we can calculate and picture derivatives of spacetime. That's what all those graphs with a planet and a 'dent' in it are. Derivatives of spacetime. Not space curvature. Not time dilation.

Is there a correlation? Yes. But they are not the same thing.
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post #156 of 157 (permalink) Old 04-30-2019, 06:41 PM
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ROLMAO!

Good thread UltraMega.
And thanks for sharing the remains of a star. I think it's impressive to catch a glimpse of something so magnificent and far away.

Some day the human collective intelligence will be better to understand our own theories and ideas as we evolve. I think AI and computing on quantum levels will help us achieve such a state.


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post #157 of 157 (permalink) Old 05-01-2019, 07:50 AM
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For those having trouble accepting that space and time are the same thing, here is a little anecdote for you:

If someone says to you "I will meet you at Grandma's house" the first thing you are going to ask is "When?" The first part, "at Grandma's house" will tell you 3 of the coordinates, but without the 4th coordinate, "When?" you can't meet up with them.


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