[NASA] Black Hole Image Makes History; NASA Telescopes Coordinated Observations - Page 2 - Overclock.net - An Overclocking Community

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[NASA] Black Hole Image Makes History; NASA Telescopes Coordinated Observations

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post #11 of 157 (permalink) Old 04-08-2019, 11:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote: Originally Posted by DNMock View Post
thought they already released an image of it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TiKNMvEnpbQ

4:13 mark is where the actual image shows up.

Maybe that one is just the results of the first pass on super sampling or whatever the method is of merging the data or something.
What you see in this video is a simulation based on real data, so yes it is an image of a black hole, but not a picture of one. The ever horizon project will actually be taking a picture of a black hole, not just collecting data points to render an image later on.

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post #12 of 157 (permalink) Old 04-08-2019, 12:02 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by skupples View Post
sooo the stuff from a couple years ago was what? interpolated data, instead of actual lenses? I r confuse.
This is supposed to be the first direct viewing of a black hole. All other images of black holes have been indirect, or viewing what they do (quasar jets, gravity distortions, etc. etc.).

It's still an interpolation of many radio telescopes over time. Even though it's a supermassive black hole, it's still pretty small and 20,000 light years away. Viewing it directly is incredibly difficult.


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post #13 of 157 (permalink) Old 04-08-2019, 12:49 PM
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It is important to remember this is using radio telescopes, thinking of this data as normal image processing is very wrong. The way we combine data from multiple radio telescopes is quite different. Radio telescopes use interferometry, this enables amazing resolution with widely separated telescopes but only after doing completely crazy amounts of very sophisticated signal processing (math). This is super computer levels of math, not something you can do in a few days on a HEDT PC or something.
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post #14 of 157 (permalink) Old 04-08-2019, 12:58 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
It is important to remember this is using radio telescopes, thinking of this data as normal image processing is very wrong. The way we combine data from multiple radio telescopes is quite different. Radio telescopes use interferometry, this enables amazing resolution with widely separated telescopes but only after doing completely crazy amounts of very sophisticated signal processing (math). This is super computer levels of math, not something you can do in a few days on a HEDT PC or something.
While this is entirely true, telescopes in other wave bands also use similar techniques. The Large Binocular Telescope, for example, has two 8.4 meter primary mirrors next to each other, and takes visible-wavelength imagery that is combined interferometrically like radio telescopes do.

Using shorter wavelengths makes this considerably harder, and you need much better quality. The radio telescopes have the advantage in that they can be across the entire planet and still be a workable system, which would be nearly impossible to do with visible-wavelength telescopes.
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post #15 of 157 (permalink) Old 04-08-2019, 01:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote: Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
It is important to remember this is using radio telescopes, thinking of this data as normal image processing is very wrong. The way we combine data from multiple radio telescopes is quite different. Radio telescopes use interferometry, this enables amazing resolution with widely separated telescopes but only after doing completely crazy amounts of very sophisticated signal processing (math). This is super computer levels of math, not something you can do in a few days on a HEDT PC or something.
That's right. This is something they probably could have done years or decades ago with the satellite tech, but its only been recently that the compute abilities needed to render the finial images has been available. I've been trying to find out what supercomputer they've been using to render the image, but so far I haven't found an answer. I did find this though;

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Enhancing the Sensitivity of the EHT

Data Collection at Wide Bandwidths

One way to increase the sensitivity of the EHT is to capture more energy from the black hole targets at each EHT site. Since black holes emit radiation at many frequencies, we can do this by increasing the range of frequencies that are recorded during EHT observations. This, in turn, requires electronic systems and recording systems that operate at higher speeds. Industry trends that allow faster personal computers and higher capacity hard disk drives have enabled the EHT to leap forward to recording rates that are more than a factor of 10 faster than for any other global array. This is embodied in “Moore’s Law”, a heuristic coined in 1965 by Intel co-founder Gordon Moore, has predicted the exponentially increasing power of integrated circuits for the subsequent decades.

The effect of Moore’s Law has enabled the EHT to gather, record, and process much larger bandwidths at a fraction of the cost of earlier pioneering VLBI systems. The resulting increase in observing sensitivity has helped extend the EHT’s reach to longer baselines, and resulted in higher quality data sets with much better “signal-to-noise” ratio, or SNR.
The EHT equips each single dish site with specialized electronics designed and supplied by the collaboration. Though historically, analog VLBI equipment was used, in the modern era digital electronics is prevalent and has been the mainstay of the EHT. For single dish telescopes, the primary unit is called the VLBI “Digital Back End”, or DBE, which samples analog data from a radio receiver and feeds the formatted digital data to a data recorder.

Several different types of digital backend have been used in EHT observations, including the first-generation DBE1 system, the Digital Base Band Converter (DBBC) system, developed in Europe, and the ROACH Digital Backend (RDBE). The most recent incarnation is called the “R2DBE” or “ROACH2 DBE”, and has been deployed at all EHT sites. The R2DBE samples and processes data at a rate of 16 gigasamples-per-second, perfectly matched to the recording data rate of the Mark6 digital recorder, the latest generation of EHT VLBI Data Recorder. ROACH stands for “Reconfigurable Open Architecture Computing Hardware” and is shared by an open source astronomical instrument collaboration called “CASPER” the Collaboration for Astronomy Signal Processing and Electronics Research”.

Each Mark6 recorder receives digital data at a rate of 16 Gigabits/sec from the R2DBE and distributes it among a total of 32 hard disk drives grouped into 4 modules of 8 disks each. The EHT is scheduled to record an aggregate rate at each site of 64 Gigabits/sec by using 4 Mark6 units in tandem. This rate is matched to the maximum bandwidth current available from the key ALMA site (Atacama Large Millimeter/Submillimeter Array) that has the largest collecting area of all the EHT sites.

Recorded disk packs from each site are shipped back to two central locations, the Max Planck Institute in Bonn, Germany, and the MIT-Haystack Observatory in Westford, Massachusetts, for correlation. The DiFX, or “distributed F-X” software correlator is now used for EHT correlation. Among other advantages, software correlation clusters are scalable and the programs are easily customized. CPU-based processors are commodity products so in the processing domain as well as the recording the EHT take’s advantage of Moore's Law advances in processing power.
https://eventhorizontelescope.org/technology

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post #16 of 157 (permalink) Old 04-08-2019, 02:56 PM
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Good find, it really is a crazy amount of data.

Quote: Originally Posted by Mand12 View Post
While this is entirely true, telescopes in other wave bands also use similar techniques. The Large Binocular Telescope, for example, has two 8.4 meter primary mirrors next to each other, and takes visible-wavelength imagery that is combined interferometrically like radio telescopes do.
That is really cool! I had no idea we were able to do visible-wavelength interferometry. Keeping track of of the waveform is crazy with visible light, visible light is hundreds of terahertz.

But still, it is not a normal method used by the IR to UV telescopes we usually see images from today.
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post #17 of 157 (permalink) Old 04-09-2019, 02:48 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
Good find, it really is a crazy amount of data.



That is really cool! I had no idea we were able to do visible-wavelength interferometry. Keeping track of of the waveform is crazy with visible light, visible light is hundreds of terahertz.

But still, it is not a normal method used by the IR to UV telescopes we usually see images from today.
The phase differentiation isn't the same as in RF processing, it's not in the electrical domain. It's done optically, using path length differences. You don't need 150 THz processors to do it. You do need really, really high quality mirrors, and adaptive optical systems to correct for atmospheric distortions. The company I work for builds those sort of systems.

A basic tabletop visible interferometer is really easy to set up - doing it for telescopes is another thing entirely. What's REALLY nuts is doing it for gravitational wave detection, with four kilometer long interferometer arms, approximately a megawatt of traveling laser power, and a series of four 40 kilogram mirrors suspended by glass fibers, to each other, so that the bottom one is the fourth consecutive pendulum for vibration isolation. When you start having to worry about things like radiation pressure noise (not all the photons in the beam hit the mirror at the same time, so they impart momentum at random times, causing the mirror to move slightly which changes the length of the interferometer arm randomly over time) and Brownian motion noise in the mirror coating (not all the atoms in the coating are in the same place all the time, because they're not at absolute zero, so the thicknesses of the extremely high-precision coating layers fluctuate, causing a change in reflectance), now that's an impressive interferometer. But hey, when you're trying to measure a strain of 10^-17, which over four kilometers is less than the size of an atomic nucleus, you've got to mind the details.

Last edited by Mand12; 04-09-2019 at 02:52 PM.
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post #18 of 157 (permalink) Old 04-10-2019, 07:02 AM
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Well... here it is. 6.5 billion times more mass than Sol, our sun, a yellow dwarf (truly a dwarf in comparison). This doesn't even bring to light the sheer size of this thing... I can't even comprehend.



Source: https://techcrunch.com/2019/04/10/he...-a-black-hole/

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post #19 of 157 (permalink) Old 04-10-2019, 08:12 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Mand12 View Post
The phase differentiation isn't the same as in RF processing, it's not in the electrical domain. It's done optically, using path length differences. You don't need 150 THz processors to do it. You do need really, really high quality mirrors, and adaptive optical systems to correct for atmospheric distortions. The company I work for builds those sort of systems.

A basic tabletop visible interferometer is really easy to set up - doing it for telescopes is another thing entirely. What's REALLY nuts is doing it for gravitational wave detection, with four kilometer long interferometer arms, approximately a megawatt of traveling laser power, and a series of four 40 kilogram mirrors suspended by glass fibers, to each other, so that the bottom one is the fourth consecutive pendulum for vibration isolation. When you start having to worry about things like radiation pressure noise (not all the photons in the beam hit the mirror at the same time, so they impart momentum at random times, causing the mirror to move slightly which changes the length of the interferometer arm randomly over time) and Brownian motion noise in the mirror coating (not all the atoms in the coating are in the same place all the time, because they're not at absolute zero, so the thicknesses of the extremely high-precision coating layers fluctuate, causing a change in reflectance), now that's an impressive interferometer. But hey, when you're trying to measure a strain of 10^-17, which over four kilometers is less than the size of an atomic nucleus, you've got to mind the details.
Pursuing that kind of precision out in the world is almost crazy. 1% error between multiple instruments at the chemical factory where I work is of no concern. You commonly choose the best one when there is disagreement. A controlled, calibrated scale is a lot more accurate than similarly calibrated load cells on a 2 trailer reactor with a multipurpose jacket, a dozen hardpiped "isolated" charge/ drain/ recirc/ pressure control lines with a four story column even if you try to make all other variables equivalent, for example. And that is simple compared to the world outside.

But if nobody tries, nobody succeeds.

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post #20 of 157 (permalink) Old 04-10-2019, 12:08 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Omega X View Post
I'm expecting the same old black dot with an infrared image around it.



...yep...
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