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[ZDNet] Apple's Tim Cook: Silicon Valley has created privacy-violating 'chaos factory'

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post #51 of 57 (permalink) Old 06-26-2019, 08:48 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by looniam View Post
a buddy of mine worked as a tech for verio in cleveland in 94-96. nice big A/C room with the phones lines running in connecting to the modems connected to the T3 backbone. at no time did they monitor connects unless troubleshooting a particular modem. at most the mac address shows up however no phone number that called. but that in of itself has nothing to help identify a person. (you need to be in actual possession of it)
The problem is that another ISP could have been logging everything and spending Monday mornings laughing about the crazy websites people went to over the weekend. Matching names to MAC addresses is pretty easy when you have to provide a username and password every time you login. Also, cookies are old (Netscape, '94).

This is what I meant by you could think you were anonymous, you might not be and you had no way to know. The systems I remember using in the 90s were very open, privacy was considered a non-issue since "no one has anything important on it anyway." Anyone in IT could access anything...

This is how we got to today, saying the 90s Internet was private is like saying the snow was still when only the first few chunks had started to roll. At that point an avalanche was inevitable but it is true that most of the snow was not moving yet.
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post #52 of 57 (permalink) Old 06-26-2019, 10:40 PM
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People like this ruined privacy. The wealthy taxpayers were terrified (greatest threat of their time), and the FBI were not equipped for chasing digital crumbs. Made perfect sense to eventually track everyone in real time as tech progressed. But to effectively do that without a court order, you must amass data from every site. This in turn, helped create markets for selling data, both good and bad.

Coding, by nature is inherently insecure for a purpose- flexible/repairable when it breaks.

"Mr. Abene and his three friends, who called themselves the Masters of Deception, or MOD, all pleaded guilty. According to a forthcoming book about the case, "Masters of Deception: The Gang That Ruled Cyperspace" (Harper Collins) by Michelle Slatalla and Joshua Quittner, MOD members traded celebrities' credit reports that they stole from the computers of TRW "like baseball cards." The reports included those of Geraldo Rivera, Richard Gere and Tony Randall. They also sold some reports.

The book depicts Mr. Abene as the brains behind the gang, the one who cracked the code for navigating the phone companies' vast network of call-switching computers. MOD members were able to set up unbillable phone numbers, listen to conversations, and in a prank aimed at a rival hacker, turn a home phone into a pay phone that demanded "Please deposit 25 cents" whenever the receiver was lifted.

The public first heard of the group on Nov. 28, 1989, when hackers wiped out the information in the Learning Link computer system operated by WNET, Channel 13, in New York, which served hundred of schools. Teachers and librarians who logged onto the system read the message, "Happy Thanksgiving you turkeys, from all of us at MOD."

Mr. Abene pleaded guilty in 1993 to breaking into computers belonging to Southwestern Bell, installing "back door" programs to allow him to re-enter at will and making other modifications that cost the company about $370,000 to correct."

----

"Almost from the moment Mr. Shimomura discovered the intrusion, he made it his business to use his own considerable hacking skills to aid the Federal Bureau of Investigation's inquiry into the crime spree. He set up stealth monitoring posts, and each night over the last few weeks, used software of his own devising to track the intruder, who was prowling the Internet. The activity usually began around midafternoon, Eastern time, broke off in the early evening, then resumed shortly after midnight and continued through dawn.

The monitoring by Mr. Shimomura enabled investigators to watch as the intruder commandeered telephone company switching centers, stole computer files from Motorola, Apple Computer and other companies, and copied 20,000 credit-card account numbers from a commercial computer network used by some of the computer world's wealthiest and technically savviest people.

And it was Mr. Shimomura who concluded last Saturday that the intruder was probably Mr. Mitnick, whose whereabouts had been unknown since November 1992, and that he was operating from a cellular phone network in Raleigh, N.C.

On Sunday morning, Mr. Shimomura took a flight from San Jose, Calif., to Raleigh-Durham International Airport. By 3 A.M. Monday, he had helped local telephone company technicians and Federal investigators use cellular-frequency scanners to pinpoint Mr. Mitnick's location: a 12-unit apartment building in the northwest Raleigh suburb of Duraleigh Hills.

Over the next 48 hours, as the F.B.I. sent in a surveillance team, obtained warrants and prepared for an arrest, cellular telephone technicians from Sprint Cellular monitored the electronic activities of the person they believed to be Mr. Mitnick."

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post #53 of 57 (permalink) Old 06-27-2019, 08:14 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
The problem is that another ISP could have been logging everything and spending Monday mornings laughing about the crazy websites people went to over the weekend. Matching names to MAC addresses is pretty easy when you have to provide a username and password every time you login. Also, cookies are old (Netscape, '94).

This is what I meant by you could think you were anonymous, you might not be and you had no way to know. The systems I remember using in the 90s were very open, privacy was considered a non-issue since "no one has anything important on it anyway." Anyone in IT could access anything...

This is how we got to today, saying the 90s Internet was private is like saying the snow was still when only the first few chunks had started to roll. At that point an avalanche was inevitable but it is true that most of the snow was not moving yet.
the "other" isp? what? oh AOL. yeah, 10x to 100x the connections with barely more than twice the techs. sure, lots of time to sit around to read non-existent logs.

the hardware available could not have been able to monitor the connections in the manner as you keep trying to claim. good for you that you actually researched to find when cookies were first introduced - but you omit they were session only as i previously stated. they expired when he session was closed. if you bother looking further you'll see cookies were developed so the server would not need to retain information.

repeat that again,"so the server wouldn't need to retain information". systems couldn't handle that information processing. but according to you, hardware hasn't changed. you keep trying to claim "could have" outliers and then want to generalize it as common or standard. nor could anyone associate a MAC address to a person unless finding that person with physical possession to the hardware; mac addresses are more easily spoofed. what is automated today took human interaction in the past; which was highly limited.

again you have nothing of fact to support your weak sauce. well, unless you show how santa claus allowed his elves to work for isps in the off season. because without super human abilities what you say is unrealistic if not impossible.

another entry in the "cool story bro" file:
i did not need AOL, compuserve or any other commercial isp to connect to the internet. i could dial the local library and use the menu system to navigate to yahoo's page. no isp, no nutscrape (which btw, didn't start off as the bloated mess it turned into) nothing, nada. btw, yahoo was the number one "search engine" as google was a distant #2. saying it was a search engine is abit of a joke as it still heavily relied on users submitted link/info as web crawlers still hadn't catalogued ~10% of the internet prior to 2000.

there would be a record at the phone company showing the number dialed but only the number dialed not what for. had i phreaked the phone company; go read the anarchists' cook book, you can establish a local landline without it ever generating a record of a number dialed. no record or knowledge of what i did during that established connection aka private. had i phreaked ma bell then it would have been be totally anonymous.

and i've already posted that privacy not being exclusive to anonymous or secret. seeing two people having a conversation does not make the content of the convention any less private - just the conversation happening is not secret.

what you've posted is speculation based on NO FACTS. come back with something better than finding some little part of a post and twist it to a "could have" as i sit and know "what it was."

until then good luck.

Quote: Originally Posted by Rocklin View Post
People like this ruined privacy. The wealthy taxpayers were terrified (greatest threat of their time), and the FBI were not equipped for chasing digital crumbs. Made perfect sense to eventually track everyone in real time as tech progressed. But to effectively do that without a court order, you must amass data from every site. This in turn, helped create markets for selling data, both good and bad.

Coding, by nature is inherently insecure for a purpose- flexible/repairable when it breaks.
Spoiler!
i certainly hope your not taking book reviews as an accurate account of history . . nor confusing the telephone systems as the internet.

Remember the golden rule of statistics: A personal sample size of one is a sufficient basis upon which to draw universal conclusions.
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Last edited by looniam; 06-27-2019 at 08:49 AM.
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post #54 of 57 (permalink) Old 06-27-2019, 06:43 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by looniam View Post
the "other" isp? what? oh AOL. yeah, 10x to 100x the connections with barely more than twice the techs. sure, lots of time to sit around to read non-existent logs.
AOL search data leak
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post #55 of 57 (permalink) Old 06-27-2019, 07:56 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
that was ten years later.
Quote:
On August 4, 2006, AOL Research, headed by Dr. Abdur Chowdhury, released a compressed text file on one of its websites containing twenty million search keywords for over 650,000 users over a 3-month period intended for research purposes.
and of course this is grotesquely overlooking that AOL≠internet regardless of time period. if all you knew was AOL back then; i'm sorry you had a horrible childhood.

but i did make a pretty hefty mistake; analogue modems did not use MAC addressing which is for ethernet. as a matter of fact, they didn't need to know anything besides what protocol and those ma bell lines are pretty limited. any addressing that was done was handled in the OS, after the modem converted back to digital. on the analogue side, what you dialed into was a NAT network of phone lines - it would take request and send anything to an open correction; it establish who was slave/master during hardware handshaking. that's all it needed

face it, the hardware was just too stupid. tech that is used now was science fiction back then.

E:
you just keep trying to find one little chink -reading to reply, to find something wrong (that isn't there) instead of reading to understand - the discussion is a complete waste of time; you refuse to get a clue,

good luck with that.

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Last edited by looniam; 06-27-2019 at 08:23 PM.
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post #56 of 57 (permalink) Old 06-28-2019, 11:39 AM
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OK, since you want me to address more of your points I have given it a shot. Can we dispense with the "good for you" and "get a clue" and similar? They do not make it any more convincing and they distract from your real points.

Quote: Originally Posted by looniam View Post
good for you that you actually researched to find when cookies were first introduced - but you omit they were session only as i previously stated. they expired when he session was closed. if you bother looking further you'll see cookies were developed so the server would not need to retain information.
They were quickly abused to track which sites you went to, not as complete a what Google or Amazon can do today, but still hardly private.

Quote: Originally Posted by looniam View Post
and i've already posted that privacy not being exclusive to anonymous or secret. seeing two people having a conversation does not make the content of the convention any less private - just the conversation happening is not secret.
I am confused by your argument here. Google knows a lot of my private data today and by this logic it is still my private data, so what is the concern over privacy? You can have a private conversation that someone else is overhearing but then you are not in private during the conversation. "That was a private conversation you overheard" is a different kind of private than what we are talking about.

By "private" I mean no one else knows the information, not that it should only be important to the parties involved.

Quote: Originally Posted by looniam View Post
and of course this is grotesquely overlooking that AOL≠internet regardless of time period. if all you knew was AOL back then; i'm sorry you had a horrible childhood.
You were the one who brought up AOL as an example of an ISP that couldn't possibly have been logging anything.

My AOL example shows just how unimportant they thought keeping web search data private was. The scandal was from a bit later but I doubt AOL got less concerned about privacy in that time, they simply felt there was interest from researchers who they could help by releasing data they already had. How long they had been collecting this type of data we do not know but they likely wanted to know what their users were doing online to inform development of their portal and had this kind of data freely available internally. Simply assuming they didn't collect anything seems odd given their business model.

A large portion of the early Internet use was through AOL, like it or not they are a big part of the early Internet you say was an age of privacy online.

Quote: Originally Posted by looniam View Post
face it, the hardware was just too stupid. tech that is used now was science fiction back then.
You have to login, this is how you tie a specific modem connection to a specific user. There is billing information attached to the login too. This does not allow monitoring of everyone, and anyone who put some effort into it could be anonymous easier than today, but the average user had no assurance of privacy and the networks didn't care about privacy at all. Any privacy was accidental, simply the result of them being too cheap to store logs and as soon as anyone felt the desire to know any of this data they were free to collect it, and often did so.

Quote: Originally Posted by looniam View Post
you just keep trying to find one little chink -reading to reply, to find something wrong (that isn't there) instead of reading to understand - the discussion is a complete waste of time; you refuse to get a clue
I am just trying to have a discussion and I still disagree with you. I am not "refusing to get a clue" I am simply unconvinced by your assertion that ISPs in the early days of the internet never logged anything and Internet activity was not monitored without the users knowledge. I know for a fact that the technology of the day was capable of doing it. Keeping the logs for a long time would have been expensive but for only a day or a week it was cheap and easy.

In the 90s I have watched people logging all the network traffic on their local area network with watching all the websites everyone who was on that network went to along with any login info that was sent in plain text (most of it). It was technically very easy to do, there were no laws against it if you owned the network, and most of those in charge of these networks did not think privacy was important. Your assertion that it didn't happen is simply that.

Collecting data is cheaper, easier, and more ubiquitous today but that does not mean it was private then. The Internet has been unconcerned about privacy since the beginning and any privacy we enjoyed in the past was accidental.
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post #57 of 57 (permalink) Old 06-28-2019, 01:07 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
Spoiler!
so you'll post the same format but x5?

you are refusing to get a clue. but as they say, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

i'll just submit you have the right to be wrong and we're done here.

Remember the golden rule of statistics: A personal sample size of one is a sufficient basis upon which to draw universal conclusions.
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