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What are good value SSDs in 2019? 1TB / Phison E12 + Toshiba

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post #101 of 134 (permalink) Old 08-03-2019, 08:21 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by JackCY View Post
Latencies and write speed on large transfers (movies, VMs, ...) it's in reviews but not on Tom's there is not that full drive write graph as other reviews there.

Only one of those pictures is from The SSD Review and it's the one that's linked. Where did the two other pictures come from? This is the last time I'm stating this, as I've asked this of you more times than I should:

Show me a single professional review that shows the 660p performing slower than a hard disk. Show me one. Show me one hard disk that is going to write 104MB/s after being slammed with 130GBs of writes.
You understand writing 130GBs of information all at once is something that 99 percent of users would never do?

Did you even read what Sean Webster said above? Why are you continuing to argue to the contrary? How many times must you be told the 660p is not slower than a hard disk under any circumstance?

"To answer your Q: Yes and no. People who state that it is like an HDD or that you are better off with an HDD are one of two people i'd say. Elitists who just want to talk trash because it's not the best. Or, people who don't understand how their workloads really work and what is actually needed to satisfy it and just reiterate what those elitists say. (which is far too common)"

"An SSD has no moving parts, while HDDs do. This alone makes SSDs hundreds of times faster than HDDs, just look at the random latency differences. And, in addition to latency, HDDs also have seek time, which adds even more time to tasks."

A lot of what we need an SSD for in our applications is actually read performance. QLC can kinda keep up at that at all times. Although, as it's been said, TLC SSDs can be faster. Just depends on what you're doing."

Quote: Originally Posted by JackCY View Post
And I think it only gets worse as you fill the drive.
What do you mean you think? If you actually read the reviews you would know. It doesn't matter how full the 660p is. Why am I stating this yet again? Sean Webster already said this in both reviews: Once the dynamic SLC cache buffer is exhausted, there's still the static SLC cache. 99 percent of users will not exhaust the static SLC cache buffer under normal OS and gaming operations. How many more times does must this be repeated for you to understand this?

When the 660p is full and the static SLC cache buffer is not exhausted the 660p is as fast as many other NVMe SSDs or at least faster than any SATA based SSD. Period. End of story.

Quote: Originally Posted by JackCY View Post
Meanwhile you can pay <10% or so more for a faster TLC drive that doesn't tank below HDD write speeds.
The QLC drives cost too much for what they offer. QLC would make sense if they increased offered capacity to 4TB at least and drop prices to half. Till then they can keep the QLC.
Not once have I argued for the value proposition of the 660p. Why are you repeating this over and over? Strawman argument? I'm talking about performance only, where you continue to perpetuate false information. Please don't bring up pricing of QLC anymore because it doesn't pertain to what we're talking about.

Quote: Originally Posted by rui-no-onna View Post
I don't need to have the fastest SSDs or even ultra low latency but I do prefer better behaved SSDs with relatively consistent performance even when full.
If you knew what you needed then why did you even bring it up in the first place? The 660p is an entry level SSD, i.e. gaming and daily OS operations. I mean this is quite obvious based on the reviews, is it not?

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post #102 of 134 (permalink) Old 08-04-2019, 05:59 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Omnidyne View Post
Only one of those pictures is from The SSD Review and it's the one that's linked. Where did the two other pictures come from? This is the last time I'm stating this, as I've asked this of you more times than I should:

Show me a single professional review that shows the 660p performing slower than a hard disk. Show me one. Show me one hard disk that is going to write 104MB/s after being slammed with 130GBs of writes.
You understand writing 130GBs of information all at once is something that 99 percent of users would never do?

Did you even read what Sean Webster said above? Why are you continuing to argue to the contrary? How many times must you be told the 660p is not slower than a hard disk under any circumstance?

"To answer your Q: Yes and no. People who state that it is like an HDD or that you are better off with an HDD are one of two people i'd say. Elitists who just want to talk trash because it's not the best. Or, people who don't understand how their workloads really work and what is actually needed to satisfy it and just reiterate what those elitists say. (which is far too common)"

"An SSD has no moving parts, while HDDs do. This alone makes SSDs hundreds of times faster than HDDs, just look at the random latency differences. And, in addition to latency, HDDs also have seek time, which adds even more time to tasks."

A lot of what we need an SSD for in our applications is actually read performance. QLC can kinda keep up at that at all times. Although, as it's been said, TLC SSDs can be faster. Just depends on what you're doing."



What do you mean you think? If you actually read the reviews you would know. It doesn't matter how full the 660p is. Why am I stating this yet again? Sean Webster already said this in both reviews: Once the dynamic SLC cache buffer is exhausted, there's still the static SLC cache. 99 percent of users will not exhaust the static SLC cache buffer under normal OS and gaming operations. How many more times does must this be repeated for you to understand this?

When the 660p is full and the static SLC cache buffer is not exhausted the 660p is as fast as many other NVMe SSDs or at least faster than any SATA based SSD. Period. End of story.



Not once have I argued for the value proposition of the 660p. Why are you repeating this over and over? Strawman argument? I'm talking about performance only, where you continue to perpetuate false information. Please don't bring up pricing of QLC anymore because it doesn't pertain to what we're talking about.



If you knew what you needed then why did you even bring it up in the first place? The 660p is an entry level SSD, i.e. gaming and daily OS operations. I mean this is quite obvious based on the reviews, is it not?
What is up with your love for the 660p? It is clearly a flawed drive with better options available at the same price point. It's pretty much that simple.

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post #103 of 134 (permalink) Old 08-04-2019, 06:31 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by ciarlatano View Post
It is clearly a flawed drive
Flawed in what way? Reviews show the opposite.

Quote: Originally Posted by ciarlatano View Post
with better options available at the same price point.
There's nothing at the same price point except DRAM-less SSDs such as the SU650. Show me an SSD utilizing the SM2262 or Phison E12 at the same price. The 660p goes on sale quite often. Arguing that someone should pay $20 more for a "superior" SSD makes no sense if the individual is gaming or reading e-mails, especially if the individual is located in a different country and the 660p is priced more competitively.

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post #104 of 134 (permalink) Old 08-04-2019, 08:02 AM
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You can check out the pSLC write cache on this review. https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews...sd,6180-2.html

Ther original 660p review didn't include it because that test was cut for my first few articles. It's pretty decent. Check how it keeps up with the 970 EVO and WD Black after a few seconds and keeps up for like 2-3 minutes of full speed writes.

Also, the interesting note on the 660p's dynamic cache. If you write to it at a lower rate like SATA speed, the dynamic cache can be as large as 275GB. It's just when written at full speed it is smaller. Also, pSLC cache size adjusts to capacity used. Its still there when the drive fills, just a smaller capacity. Which is still plenty for entry-level use. Much better than SATA most of the time.

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post #105 of 134 (permalink) Old 08-05-2019, 11:37 AM - Thread Starter
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No one is saying 660p is worse in every single situation than an HDD but there are instances where it does go to 100MB/s writes on simple file transfers which aren't anything abnormal nowadays when a BD movie is 50-100GB, games too and VMs easily as well.
I couldn't find any decent reviews of 660p that would include all the details in it, you have to literally hunt through multiple to get the whole picture and scout reviews of other drives.

Thanks Sean I knew I saw it somewhere, it's in a different review. Too bad it's not updated back to the 660p review.

Sure it has the nice caching that saves it from poor performance but once that cache is gone it starts to crawl.
For minimum budget, sure get a 660p 1TB, no other SSD no other HDD, done. For anything else there are better drives.
Who knows how these early QLC will last, first TLC weren't great either.

The write latencies of empty vs full are on Anandtech, watch and cry

You like the 660p, buy it, it's your money. I'm not telling anyone to buy anything, go check it yourself and make up your own mind.

I don't have the space or time to do 100GB transfers on HDDs, that's why I got more SSD storage. When ever I need to read/write HDD it can vary from 60 to 160+ MB/s depending on file age and size, doesn't go over 200 but can peak to 180-190 MB/s. And these are cheap HDDs 7200, 5900rpm with similar performance despite rotational speed difference. There are way better HDDs than this if one needs them.


25 GB onto 2 HDDs that have <100 GB left before transfer:
Now you can look again above or search the web for how great Intel 660p when near full with write speeds of large files, ~100 MB/s. Yes less than cheap old HDDs. And an SSD with over 50% empty on it (150 GB, deleted 100 GB I already transferred before to my new SSD) freshly trimmed...doing what? Yeah "same as" or rather even lower write speed than the HDDs. Cheap SSDs are great at short bursts and latencies but long writes they do not like. The Samsung 840 EVO is abysmal for an SSD, still it was the best value one could buy a few years back. The Intel 660p is not a lone struggler for large file writes, but among M.2 NVMe drives... it's the very bottom along with P1 and other QLC that may exist.

136 MB/s 5900 rpm HDD
140 MB/s 7200 rpm HDD
130 MB/s TLC SATA SSD

Any potato SSD is good enough for OS drive and loading games. But once you start transferring large files or project folders with many small files you're gonna wish you had a better faster drive.

These crazy speeds specs on SSDs are very misleading (pure marketing, burst high speed for a short period and then crawl) and you really gotta look at real world transfers of large capacities of: single file and large amount of small files to see what the drive will actually be capable of.
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post #106 of 134 (permalink) Old 08-05-2019, 11:59 AM
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The Corsair Force MP510 1,92 TB SSD i ordered almost two weeks ago is ready for pickup at the store i ordered from
Plan on picking it up tomorrow or the day after if i cant find time tomorrow

The SSD is the only thing that has keept me from testing my new RTX 2070 Super which has been rather annoying since the old 1 TB 860 Evo is too small for all the games and benchmarks i want to run

Edit 1: here it is
Edit 2: how hot is too hot for these drives i am installing everything and the new SSD is hitting 70c
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post #107 of 134 (permalink) Old 08-07-2019, 10:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Depends how accurate the sensor is on yours. I've seen mine at even 8C after a boot up so that was obviously wrong by 15C.
Without heatsink I think it was 68C copying 100GB to it, one of earlier posts has the number, with no offest so that's probably 68+15 = 83C. And that's PCI2x2 800MB/s max while copying from a slower SATA SSD, I don't think the connection really matters, but maybe it does get even more toasty at higher speeds.

This is how hot it can get: https://www.guru3d.com/articles_page..._review,6.html
Controller 80C+

The JEYI Warship cooler from China keeps it cool and has good clearance, can be found <$5 shipped from Asia or elsewhere up to about $15 on US stores. Didn't see any similar low profile coolers that cool both sides and are firmly attached, no clip on or rubber band on.

If you don't have any airflow over it or stick it under a GPU then indeed you can run into thermal throttling when you heat it up with long writes. Some reviews of these drives showed it. It all depends on your setup.
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post #108 of 134 (permalink) Old 08-07-2019, 10:52 AM
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Hi,
2070 super isn't even as good as a 1080ti
https://www.overclock.net/forum/69-n...070-super.html

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post #109 of 134 (permalink) Old 08-07-2019, 11:03 AM
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If they get too hot they'll throttle and they shouldn't until >70c.

Neither of my NVME drives have been over 60c and both generally stay in the low/mid 40s.
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post #110 of 134 (permalink) Old 08-07-2019, 02:34 PM
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The only M.2 slot i have is under the PCI-E slot i have the GPU in so its getting zero air flow and the GPU might be heating it up as well
I did find a PCI-E card with an NVME M.2 slot on it so maybe thats a good idea?

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