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What are good value SSDs in 2019? 1TB / Phison E12 + Toshiba

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post #81 of 134 (permalink) Old 07-22-2019, 10:46 PM - Thread Starter
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For a quick end user test it's fine. CDM also tends to be shown by manufacturers when making their marketing claims. For reviews... more about showing users what they can easily compare with while also using other custom tests to test a drive better.

No way of knowing who is "hiding" behind what nick on forums from what site/channel.
I was simply shopping and looking for a good value drive, couldn't find much initially on typical review sites of CPUs/GPUs/... so I asked here and the E12 drives were mentioned. It's really hard to tell from shops and aggregators what drives are good when one doesn't know which controllers are good. New and old being sold side by side with contradicting prices etc. (lower performance for higher price of older products).
There didn't seem to be any active recent SSD threads on OCN with latest drives recommendations. So I made the list of E12 drives that could be found since they seem to be the best bang 4 buck right now.

Anandtech is kind of funky with it's tests, offering 3 different tests with 3 different results, probably each is or should be simulating a different user behavior usage of a drive. Varying degrees of reads/writes and types. Browsing reviews of SSDs on Anandtech is a pain because they mix review together with news, at least I do not know how to list reviews only like other sites can.

No doubt the high transfer speeds get harder to achieve both other hardware wise and software wise.

I use FastCopy for transferring larger volumes of data or when verification is wanted since doing MD5 on 100GB is not fun. https://fastcopy.jp/en/

This is the thermal sensor weirdness: https://www.guru3d.com/articles_page..._review,6.html


What update did you use to install firmware 12.3? I've added what I found into OP for the firmwares but haven't updated any myself.
Is it even worth it to update 12.2 to 12.3? Are there any differences worth updating for other than higher version number?

Last edited by JackCY; 07-22-2019 at 10:50 PM.
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post #82 of 134 (permalink) Old 07-23-2019, 06:04 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by JackCY View Post
For a quick end user test it's fine. CDM also tends to be shown by manufacturers when making their marketing claims. For reviews... more about showing users what they can easily compare with while also using other custom tests to test a drive better.

No way of knowing who is "hiding" behind what nick on forums from what site/channel.
I was simply shopping and looking for a good value drive, couldn't find much initially on typical review sites of CPUs/GPUs/... so I asked here and the E12 drives were mentioned. It's really hard to tell from shops and aggregators what drives are good when one doesn't know which controllers are good. New and old being sold side by side with contradicting prices etc. (lower performance for higher price of older products).
There didn't seem to be any active recent SSD threads on OCN with latest drives recommendations. So I made the list of E12 drives that could be found since they seem to be the best bang 4 buck right now.

Anandtech is kind of funky with it's tests, offering 3 different tests with 3 different results, probably each is or should be simulating a different user behavior usage of a drive. Varying degrees of reads/writes and types. Browsing reviews of SSDs on Anandtech is a pain because they mix review together with news, at least I do not know how to list reviews only like other sites can.

No doubt the high transfer speeds get harder to achieve both other hardware wise and software wise.

I use FastCopy for transferring larger volumes of data or when verification is wanted since doing MD5 on 100GB is not fun. https://fastcopy.jp/en/

This is the thermal sensor weirdness: https://www.guru3d.com/articles_page..._review,6.html


What update did you use to install firmware 12.3? I've added what I found into OP for the firmwares but haven't updated any myself.
Is it even worth it to update 12.2 to 12.3? Are there any differences worth updating for other than higher version number?
I got you. I understand exactly. That is why I got into SSDs years back myself. I wanted to clear things up about whats going on with what. etc. Sadly, all my SSDs efforts go into my work now rather than here on OCN. I still like to help out around here every now and again. Do you have any tests that you would like to see done in reviews? I'm actually trying to come up with ideas since I'm retesting a bunch of drives on a new testbed starting this week. Most of the time it seems readers really don't care too much about what tests are done.

Have you ever seen this dude's buying guide? https://www.reddit.com/user/NewMaxx/...ing_guide_wip/ That spreadsheet lists almost everything new/current for peeps. Lists all the drives with the controller, NAND, etc. Looks like a decent resource to look over.

I got my 12.3 firmware from Corsair directly, but one I downloaded from that reddit user who linked some random 12.3 update from another manufacturer I believe. Both are the same exes and DLLs and update to 12.3 fine. I so far have upgraded my MyDigitalSSD BPX Pro SSDs at all capacities (240GB-2TB) from both 12.1 and 12.2 firmware direct to 12.3. No data loss. And, on the 960GB Corsair Force MP510, I was on 11.0 firmware and updated to 12.3, but that results in data loss. There is a live firmware update option, but I just did the shutdown option in the updater. I think all E12 drives feature generic base firmware. None of the SMART data or OEM data changes after the update. (waiting on Phison's rep to get back to me on exact differences and stuff). I can go ahead and try flashing my SP P34A80 if you want confirmation before you go about it.

Here's a link to the firmware I got from Corsair: https://www.dropbox.com/s/k6imkbv1ax...e12.3.zip?dl=0

Oh and that sensor weirdness may be related to the 11.0 firmware on the drive when we originally got test samples. 12.X may fix that, although I don't have a thermal camera to confirm.

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post #83 of 134 (permalink) Old 07-23-2019, 08:29 AM - Thread Starter
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I can't really say for SSDs what other tests would be good to have. I know there is iometer and some companion program to it? And these can be customized for testing, never did it myself only have them saved.

It's good to see these for example:
  • Performance of empty vs full drive, or even a progress of performance as drive fills up, some reviews show this in some way.
  • Fependence of performance on available recovery time (moving data from SLC to storage, etc. time for maintenance tasks), can be dug out from reading the test descriptions/specifications when reviews do go beyond AS/ATTO/CDM.
  • Size of RAM, size of SLC cache, how performance changes when these are exhausted, some reviews have graphs with progressive write filling up the drive, SLC/MLC stays up in speed, TLC often drops but stays usable, QLC tanks to HDD speeds, etc.
  • Temperature photos of the drive vs reported temperature, does it need a heatsink to maintain performance under heavy load and/or being stuck under a hot GPU, possibly what generic cheap heatsink does fit the drive and is low profile enough to not obstruct add in cards, is one sided motherboard heatsink (on the modern mobos) enough to cool it? Or is the controller for example on bottom side and remains uncooled.
  • What other drives have the same/similar specifications, such as a review of 1 Phison E12 drive would have links to all other E12 drives and their reviews when available. A mention of a comparable competing drive say with SM2262EN/WD and differences.
  • Some real worlds tests involving VMs, large Photoshop file processing (I got the drive for this too as I need a fast storage for cache and read/writing a 5GB+ PSB file, Photoshop is horribly optimized and will eat 16GB+ RAM and crap a ton of cache just to open it, editing 12k resolution image with a few layers is so much "fun" in Photoshop, it's like it has been made for editing 1080p images at best), game copy speed (modern games being nearly 100GB... kind of does have it's use), file search, ...
  • Is achieved level of performance worth paying for or does it fall into the category of: for normal user mainly gaming, streaming, ... there is almost no practical difference between 2GB/s and 6GB/s drive... certainly not worth paying +100% in price. But say for a pro use the very low latency offers excellent access times for... "databases", great endurance, stable performance under heavy use and load, ... In that case the drive is worth the high extra. For example.
  • There are often the usual varying Q depth and file size tests, which for non technical people will often be gibberish and all they can make of it is a "ranking" out of a graph.

For a regular home user I would say those CDM/AS/ATTO are helpful so one can check a performance of their own drive and see if they have some issue that needs resolving, if those benches are to be trusted and reliable that is, but then do mention it that a lower performance reported from these is normal under some specific circumstances or even why when known and not a fault of the drive but the bench is made that way.

Of course I do like to see more proper tests, custom tests made with iometer or custom programs etc. Not just PCmark or some other suite though.

Level1Tech sometimes does interesting things with hardware, commenting on real world uses for regular person and a prosumer, checking Linux compatibility, ...

I have not seen or found that guide yet, looks nice. I've added it to OP. I see you've also updated the SSD guide on Tom'sHW. I think I only saw the MyDigitalSSD BPX Pro in a previous one there, which in my region is not available and many guides I found in June were still listing a lot of old drives. Anandtech: https://www.anandtech.com/show/9799/best-ssds still is outdated because prices have changed so much that the E12 drives there cost double and one will overlook them for example. Personally I think the QLC drives like P1, 660p should not be in these recommendations. Some of these older guides are filled with old drives and high prices, making them almost useless in the market that has moved on since both in performance and price.

Rather than having a specific single product recommendation it would be nice to have a recommendation of a "drive design" with a list of drives that use it, especially when all the drives seem to be coming out of one factory anyway, same performance etc. That way one can search the drives in that list in their region and find which are available and for what price. That way it's less likely you will have a recommended drive that is region specific.

I did look up all the E12 and Adata/HP drives in shop aggregators and in shops, to be able to #1 buy one as they are not always available well, #2 buy at a good price.

Yes it's the same archive and files to a bit of the 12.3 update.

12.3 update on P34A80.
If you want, sure I would appreciate that. I did find I think that MP510 and P34A80 can be updated successfully and without data loss at least from v12+ but v11 = data loss.

My drive arrived with 12.2 and it has the sensor readout being at least 15C too low.
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post #84 of 134 (permalink) Old 07-23-2019, 08:35 AM
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Thank you Sean for your insight and that very useful table.


One thing I would like to note is how reviewers often gloss over the SSD software's disk footprint and memory footprint. The software included may be antique-styled or extremely bloated (size used or memory use).


You noted in your MP510 review at Tom's hardware:
Quote:
you can install Corsair’s SSD Toolbox. With it, you can monitor the health of your drive, secure erase the drive, update the firmware, and more. While it is a great drive tool, the SSD Toolbox GUI is fairly dated. An updated interface would be welcome considering Corsair’s other software (like LINK and iCUle) is much sleeker looking.
It has a minimal few MB of disk usage though.

Sandisk's SSD dashboard is about half a GB in disk space per MajorGeeks' 7/17/2019 download size... AFAIK it doesn't have any amazing features, the manual only lists 3 tabs (performance in terms of speed and TRIM, tools such as secure erase and firmware update check, and status for health monitoring).

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post #85 of 134 (permalink) Old 07-23-2019, 10:23 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by JackCY View Post
I can't really say for SSDs what other tests would be good to have. I know there is iometer and some companion program to it? And these can be customized for testing, never did it myself only have them saved.

It's good to see these for example:[*]Performance of empty vs full drive, or even a progress of performance as drive fills up, some reviews show this in some way.
First off, thanks a lot for the feedback. I hope you don't mind me commenting point by point in the discussion. Also, I just reread the OP. You mention 1TB drives are 953GB, as well some 1TB drives are 931.5GB too - Samsung 970 EVO series, WD Black SN750, Crucial P1, though I'm not aware of any E12 based SSDs at that 930GB.

I currently, test drives at 50% full rather than empty. Honestly, beyond 10% used, performance doesn't change much except for peak random IOPS or maybe a dynamic pseudo SLC cache will be smaller when more full. But, most real life applications won't change in performance much at all with a smaller dynamic cache.

Quote: Originally Posted by JackCY View Post
[*]Fependence of performance on available recovery time (moving data from SLC to storage, etc. time for maintenance tasks), can be dug out from reading the test descriptions/specifications when reviews do go beyond AS/ATTO/CDM.
Do you have any ideas on how this could be achieved? It's a great idea, but this is kinda tough to do, but I was thinking of building an iometer script to show how long it takes for the SLC buffer to recover, but with so many cache sizes and flushing patterns, this may take a while to develop. I would wind up doing interval'd time checks, but I would also be constantly refilling the cache and the time to carry out the test may be longer than it is worth - I can easily see it going for hours. Gotta make something I can easily fit into my already day-long testing. This is also something that challenges testing. You need to ensure that cache is clean before starting the next benchmark.

Quote: Originally Posted by JackCY View Post
[*]Size of RAM, size of SLC cache, how performance changes when these are exhausted, some reviews have graphs with progressive write filling up the drive, SLC/MLC stays up in speed, TLC often drops but stays usable, QLC tanks to HDD speeds, etc.
I mention this, but RAM doesn't really matter. Doubling the RAM or reducing it doesn't have much performance impact on most SSDs these days. DDR3 vs DDR4 also makes no difference. The other stuff is partially covered now, I figure just showing the size and behavior of the cache is good enough and from there most can see how it will perform under heavy writing with my 15min sequential write test. Most of the time the SLC cache clears within minutes. The 1TB Intel 660P takes like 20-30minutes to fold the SLC->QLC. But, remember, when the SLC cache is full, the data on the cache is also faster than the native TLC or QLC. So reads do get a small boost, folding out data isn't always something that is beneficial. Crucial's P1, for example, evacuates data from the cache faster than the 660P in favor of write performance, but that hurts it heavily in PCMark 8 and other application tests.

Quote: Originally Posted by JackCY View Post
[*]Temperature photos of the drive vs reported temperature, does it need a heatsink to maintain performance under heavy load and/or being stuck under a hot GPU, possibly what generic cheap heatsink does fit the drive and is low profile enough to not obstruct add in cards, is one sided motherboard heatsink (on the modern mobos) enough to cool it? Or is the controller for example on bottom side and remains uncooled.
Good stuff that I've been wanting to do, just don't have the $ to invest in one of those cameras/accessories. I've toyed with this every now and then, but I usually just plop a 120mm fan on the PSU aimed at my PCIe slots and temps of most drives stay under 60C - usually 45-50C at most underload like that. M.2 SSDs only consume 5-7W at most and average less, but I've been thinking about doing a heatsink vs non-heatsink head to head sometime putting those very ideas into play too. The VPN100 is one of the tallest heatsinked models I've used so far and it doesn't interfere with my GPU even in the highest M.2 slot. I think i mentioned that in my review, I try to at least. Also, motherboard heatsinks vary a lot. On my x470 system, it makes my OS drive idle at 60C, but temps never pass that either lol. (also, I don't think I've ever seen one M.2 with the controller on the bottom side)

Quote: Originally Posted by JackCY View Post
[*]What other drives have the same/similar specifications, such as a review of 1 Phison E12 drive would have links to all other E12 drives and their reviews when available. A mention of a comparable competing drive say with SM2262EN/WD and differences.
Very good point. I've recently started this when I started at Tom's too. Although, sometimes I don't go into deep details and just state entry-level/high-end competitor or something along those lines.


Quote: Originally Posted by JackCY View Post
[*]Some real worlds tests involving VMs, large Photoshop file processing (I got the drive for this too as I need a fast storage for cache and read/writing a 5GB+ PSB file, Photoshop is horribly optimized and will eat 16GB+ RAM and crap a ton of cache just to open it, editing 12k resolution image with a few layers is so much "fun" in Photoshop, it's like it has been made for editing 1080p images at best), game copy speed (modern games being nearly 100GB... kind of does have it's use), file search, ...
This x100000. So, PCMark 8 and sysmark do a decent job covering a broad range of applications representing the use cases most consumers would use, especially sysmark since it is application-based, not trace based. I started using Spec workstation 3, which goes further than PCMark 8 as a test for workstation users - aka - real pro workloads. It even breaks down IOPS and throughput, but, nothing really on VMs. Would be cool to do some VM load times and transfer performance within the VM. I'm just not sure how much that would be worth the effort, not many care about that honestly.


Quote: Originally Posted by JackCY View Post
[*]Is achieved level of performance worth paying for or does it fall into the category of: for normal user mainly gaming, streaming, ... there is almost no practical difference between 2GB/s and 6GB/s drive... certainly not worth paying +100% in price. But say for a pro use the very low latency offers excellent access times for... "databases", great endurance, stable performance under heavy use and load, ... In that case the drive is worth the high extra. For example.
Thats a good idea, I never thought to define and classify categories like that. I think I'll start in my recommendations.

Quote: Originally Posted by JackCY View Post
[*]There are often the usual varying Q depth and file size tests, which for non technical people will often be gibberish and all they can make of it is a "ranking" out of a graph.
You know what? I actually feel like varrying file size tests are meh. I just keep ATTO around for that reason. Otherwise, I just use iometer to see 4KB random and 128KB sequential at various QDs (mainly 1-8) and 1MB at QD1, which normally correlates to how Windows will perform a regular sequential file drag and drop. Although I back this up by testing transfers with diskbench - like fast copy, but basically just a timer for Windows file and folder transfers really. I do a 50GB file copy on the drive and a large file read in my main SSDs tests to cover that performance.

Quote: Originally Posted by JackCY View Post
For a regular home user I would say those CDM/AS/ATTO are helpful so one can check a performance of their own drive and see if they have some issue that needs resolving, if those benches are to be trusted and reliable that is, but then do mention it that a lower performance reported from these is normal under some specific circumstances or even why when known and not a fault of the drive but the bench is made that way.

Of course I do like to see more proper tests, custom tests made with iometer or custom programs etc. Not just PCmark or some other suite though.
I agree. I used to show off these tests when I was writing for The SSD Review. I think it is a great resource of comparison, but most actually prefer just to see data graphs instead and like I said, they have their quirks, so I've ditched that since. Also, test suites are very useful, much more so than iometer imo. It does more than just test a random datapoint. The tests are actually built off of real workloads.

Quote: Originally Posted by JackCY View Post
Level1Tech sometimes does interesting things with hardware, commenting on real world uses for regular person and a prosumer, checking Linux compatibility, ...
I've read others asking about linux compatibility check before too, but every drive should be fine in Linux until a bug is found. I don't have any protocol analyzers, so that's hard to do if you need a concrete answer. Otherwise, they are just standardized SATA or NVMe devices at the end of the day. Every SSD I test, however, has been secure erased within Parted Magic at one point or another. So, I'd say they are compatible after accessing them within that live OS. So, I could start mentioning that if you think it really would help.

Quote: Originally Posted by JackCY View Post
I have not seen or found that guide yet, looks nice. I've added it to OP.
Yeah, I just found it a few weeks ago. I wanna reach out to the dude and find out who he is lol.

Quote: Originally Posted by JackCY View Post
I see you've also updated the SSD guide on Tom'sHW. I think I only saw the MyDigitalSSD BPX Pro in a previous one there, which in my region is not available and many guides I found in June were still listing a lot of old drives. Anandtech: https://www.anandtech.com/show/9799/best-ssds still is outdated because prices have changed so much that the E12 drives there cost double and one will overlook them for example. Personally I think the QLC drives like P1, 660p should not be in these recommendations. Some of these older guides are filled with old drives and high prices, making them almost useless in the market that has moved on since both in performance and price. Rather than having a specific single product recommendation it would be nice to have a recommendation of a "drive design" with a list of drives that use it, especially when all the drives seem to be coming out of one factory anyway, same performance etc. That way one can search the drives in that list in their region and find which are available and for what price. That way it's less likely you will have a recommended drive that is region specific.

I did look up all the E12 and Adata/HP drives in shop aggregators and in shops, to be able to #1 buy one as they are not always available well, #2 buy at a good price.
Good point, I'll keep this in mind.

Quote: Originally Posted by JackCY View Post
Yes it's the same archive and files to a bit of the 12.3 update.

12.3 update on P34A80.
If you want, sure I would appreciate that. I did find I think that MP510 and P34A80 can be updated successfully and without data loss at least from v12+ but v11 = data loss.

My drive arrived with 12.2 and it has the sensor readout being at least 15C too low.
Just upated my P34A80 from 12.2 to 12.3 without an issue. Also updated my 1TB Patriot Viper VP100 and 512GB Gigabyte Aorus RGB from 12.1 to 12.3 too.

Quote: Originally Posted by AlphaC View Post
Thank you Sean for your insight and that very useful table.


One thing I would like to note is how reviewers often gloss over the SSD software's disk footprint and memory footprint. The software included may be antique-styled or extremely bloated (size used or memory use).


You noted in your MP510 review at Tom's hardware: It has a minimal few MB of disk usage though.

Sandisk's SSD dashboard is about half a GB in disk space per MajorGeeks' 7/17/2019 download size... AFAIK it doesn't have any amazing features, the manual only lists 3 tabs (performance in terms of speed and TRIM, tools such as secure erase and firmware update check, and status for health monitoring).
You're welcome. And wow, i didnt know its gotten that big. Last time i downloaded it, it was like 230MB or so. Crucial's storage executive was rather large too at about 200MB before, i think they shrunk it a bit recently tho. Those 3 are the main large software tools I know of. Most are usually 5-50MB. I'll keep this in mind. Thank you!

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post #86 of 134 (permalink) Old 07-23-2019, 10:35 AM
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I don't know what's up with Crucial Storage executive, I have used it on an older laptop (~200MB size) and it's probably bloated from Java. I believe that unlike the Sandisk tools it detects the status of other brand SSDs and they have the momentum cache thing as you mentioned.


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post #87 of 134 (permalink) Old 07-23-2019, 08:48 PM - Thread Starter
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By all means. I wrote into OP the expected usable capacities for the 1TB advertised and 960GB advertised E12 drives from what was reported by users and I calculate the OP size, it's pretty simple really. They love to advertise sizes in GB with each k, M, G, T being a multiple of 1000 not 1024.
So a 1TB advertised drive shows up as 1024 * 10^9 B = 953.85 GB, yeah they advertise 1 TB but shows up as 1024 * 10^9 B not at 1000 * 10^9 B which would be 931 GB.

Quote: Originally Posted by Sean Webster View Post
Do you have any ideas on how this could be achieved? It's a great idea, but this is kinda tough to do, but I was thinking of building an iometer script to show how long it takes for the SLC buffer to recover, but with so many cache sizes and flushing patterns, this may take a while to develop. I would wind up doing interval'd time checks, but I would also be constantly refilling the cache and the time to carry out the test may be longer than it is worth - I can easily see it going for hours. Gotta make something I can easily fit into my already day-long testing. This is also something that challenges testing. You need to ensure that cache is clean before starting the next benchmark.
Yes those concerns sound valid. The write cache can be seen from those drive fill ups and how different drives especially SLC vs MLC vs TLC QLC drop in write speed on long writes depending on user of cache and it's size.
There was also some difference between firmware version of the E12 drives in how well the cache was recovering and thus the write speed spiking back up.

I can only say how I would do something like write caching, keep as large portion of RAM as write buffer and use dynamic SLC cache. This all seems to differ controller to controller if it has RAM and how it caches on the NAND.
This should likely show on a continuous write as the small RAM having extreme write speed that lasts very short time, very very short time (maxing out the interface speed to write into the 1-2GB RAM found on some drives), followed by SLC cache that lasts longer and allows the TLC/QLC drives to offer decent write speeds for small to large writes depending on SLC cache size, after that the TLC, QLC drop in performance as cache is gone and may occasionally recover as cache is being asynchronously cleaned by the controller.

Seen here: https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews...sd,6180-2.html

Quote:
Sustained Sequential Write Performance

Official write specifications are only part of the performance picture. Most SSD makers implement an SLC cache buffer, which is a fast area of SLC-programmed flash that absorbs incoming data. Sustained write speeds can suffer tremendously once the workload spills outside of the SLC cache and into the "native" TLC or QLC flash. We hammer the SSDs with sequential writes for 15 minutes to measure both the size of the SLC buffer and performance after the buffer is saturated.

Because it has a Phison E12 NVMe controller at its heart, we know the Silicon Power P34A80 features an SLC write cache. After testing, we can see that it is capable of absorbing up to 24GB of data at 3GBps before performance degrades to native direct to TLC write speeds. This matches the MyDigitalSSD BPX Pro, although it does so without the extra overprovisioning. After the cache fills, write performance will degrade to just over 1GBps until it has a break to recover. Here it ties for fourth place overall.
An SX8200Pro for example has larger SLC cache dropping to similar speed once it's full but then it drops again later to 600 MB/s.

https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews...sd,5955-2.html

Quote:
It seems that the Adata XPG SX8200 Pro features a two-tiered write cache. During the first minute of the test, the drive wrote over 165GB of data at an average rate of 2.85GB/s. Then performance degraded to an average of 1.1GB/s over the next 7-8 minutes while the drive wrote an additional 500GB of data. After that, it degraded once more to an average of 615MB/s. So, for those of you who write lots of large files, the SX8200 Pro should be able to handle the workload without much issue.
Why is it two tiered and so slow, don't know. It's better than the E12 for large writes except a total full drive write.

Yes you have this pretty covered.

Quote:
Good stuff that I've been wanting to do, just don't have the $ to invest in one of those cameras/accessories. I've toyed with this every now and then, but I usually just plop a 120mm fan on the PSU aimed at my PCIe slots and temps of most drives stay under 60C - usually 45-50C at most underload like that. M.2 SSDs only consume 5-7W at most and average less, but I've been thinking about doing a heatsink vs non-heatsink head to head sometime putting those very ideas into play too. The VPN100 is one of the tallest heatsinked models I've used so far and it doesn't interfere with my GPU even in the highest M.2 slot. I think i mentioned that in my review, I try to at least. Also, motherboard heatsinks vary a lot. On my x470 system, it makes my OS drive idle at 60C, but temps never pass that either lol. (also, I don't think I've ever seen one M.2 with the controller on the bottom side)
I have this: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32848953120.html
Costs $5 or even a little under elsewhere, or more on Amazon, Newegg and rebrands.
Can't find there how tall it is but it's pretty low profile probably 6mm tall, it goes above PCIe slots a little and it would just, just clear a GPU if I had one over it:



VPN100 heatsink is taller and so are most heatsinks one can buy that aren't that thin cheapest heatsink with rubber/silicone straps.

Quote:
Very good point. I've recently started this when I started at Tom's too. Although, sometimes I don't go into deep details and just state entry-level/high-end competitor or something along those lines.
https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews...sd,6180-3.html

When I'm reading it and that's IF I'm reading it at all as I often look for data and read skim it after, I would look for a list of drives, there is a mention of the MyDigitalSSD BPX Pro but I can't buy that in my region and there are not other E12 mentioned, no Corsair MP510 that's available worldwide for a long time and other easy to get/find. So the comparisons and alternatives are listed more as specific products there right now instead of as product "designs". For example with GPUs one would not be listing competing single product but a graphics chip/design/line (RX 580, RTX 2080, etc.) that's used in many products. So with SSDs I would look for a list of other E12 drives and a mention of say SM2262EN with a link to list or review of those.

For example TPU has https://www.techpowerup.com/review/?...=25&order=date which is nice to search for only reviews but it doesn't offer an option to search by SSD controller, with GPUs this is user "hackable" because all GPUs (usually) have name of the chip in their own name so one will type in RTX 2070 and get a list of reviews of all of them.

With E12 drives there is sometimes P34 in their code/name but even then it's hard to search by typing just that. You can type in E12 or SM2262EN and get zero results as the controller is not in name of products as it is with GPUs.

On Tom's this seems to work to search by SSD controller but it returns both Reviews and News with no way to limit it only to reviews. And to be honest I only found that search a moment ago after years of seeing Tom's site. There is this search icon under top menu, with the search field hidden until icon is clicked and can't click into the search field when it's hidden either. When search field is shown it breaks the top menu, try it, click search icon here:

https://www.tomshardware.com/t/ssd/review/

And then click on Product Reviews, now mouse down to select what review section you want and OH NO the menu hides on it's own before you can click anything.
The only way to get rid of this is to load a page with the search field hidden.


Quote:
This x100000. So, PCMark 8 and sysmark do a decent job covering a broad range of applications representing the use cases most consumers would use, especially sysmark since it is application-based, not trace based. I started using Spec workstation 3, which goes further than PCMark 8 as a test for workstation users - aka - real pro workloads. It even breaks down IOPS and throughput, but, nothing really on VMs. Would be cool to do some VM load times and transfer performance within the VM. I'm just not sure how much that would be worth the effort, not many care about that honestly.
I'm not a big fan of Intel sponsored benchmarks, or Intel compiler compiled ones, even for SSDs it can have an impact. There is a whole issue about this and why some won't use the tools that Intel has put their nose into to try and boost performance of their products in those benchmarks.

Level1Techs Wendell: https://twitter.com/tekwendell

Would probably know about what to look for and test with VMs.

From my 1 computer VM use, I would say one could test a VM start up time and performing operations/tests in the VM if it makes sense while the VM is located on tested drive obviously. Opening a VM from HDD = go make a tea while you wait, and similarly sluggish it is to use it as well ==> SSD helps a lot similarly how host OS performance changes between HDD and SSD. There more complex tasks to do with VMs too, cloning, backups/snapshots, etc. for a more prosumer use case. Since VMware broke it's Worsktation on my hardware (it won't install or launch, literally, for years now) I use a free VirtualBox instead which covers my occasional basic VM needs.

Quote:
Thats a good idea, I never thought to define and classify categories like that. I think I'll start in my recommendations.
Different use cases definitely can have different product recommendations, say one category is for an office use on low end (hey SATA is fine for you, buy the cheapest you can find), gamer use for mainstream/mid range (these M.2 are good value), prosumer/creator for "HEDT" higher end platforms (you may want to look at PCIe4 drives but those fast PCIe3 aren't bad either). The differences are both in use and in budget. Of course there is always the "invisible" category of business server use and who knows where they go for reviews of that kind of hardware, as far as I can tell they likely review themselves for their use cases or buy what ever they can get with specs they want as the options often may not be as vast.

That's why I also wrote my most demanding use case in OP so people can recommend drives for that mid range good value. And why I went with E12 drive that's cheaper than SM2262EN as for my use it makes no sense to spend extra for the SM2262EN.

Right now the E12 and E16 drives probably cover most of the market. E12 being at SATA prices and offering good value and speed with the next step above to even consider being PCIe4 drives.

Quote:
I've read others asking about linux compatibility check before too, but every drive should be fine in Linux until a bug is found. I don't have any protocol analyzers, so that's hard to do if you need a concrete answer. Otherwise, they are just standardized SATA or NVMe devices at the end of the day. Every SSD I test, however, has been secure erased within Parted Magic at one point or another. So, I'd say they are compatible after accessing them within that live OS. So, I could start mentioning that if you think it really would help.
Drives are probably fine, but then for example what about Optane PCIe drives, and other fancier or unusual drive solutions. Or a RAID controller card. etc.
Often it's motherboards, their UEFI IOMMU. CPU support in Win, Linux, ... as we can see with every new platform and architecture there are always some "first adopter" issues to watch out for. With CPUs even programs get broken at times and need fixing.
SSD being much more simpler probably don't suffer from so many compatibility issues.


I will try update my drive and see if the temperature sensor readout changed at all, my guess is it will stay the same.

Quote: Originally Posted by AlphaC View Post
I don't know what's up with Crucial Storage executive, I have used it on an older laptop (~200MB size) and it's probably bloated from Java. I believe that unlike the Sandisk tools it detects the status of other brand SSDs and they have the momentum cache thing as you mentioned.


http://www.thessdreview.com/daily-ne...-any-nvme-ssd/
Yes Java apps are a bloat almost by definition. Having these tools in sizes of 1MB+ is crazy, all it does is display a few tabs of GUI and a piece of text, you could literally fit this into a <500k executable no problem. The problem is they probably use some crazy graphical frameworks to make the GUI and then the apps explode in size instantly. You can see this even with the AS/ATTO/CDM tools, some are <1MB with simple GUI while other opted for a fancier skinable GUI and suddenly explode to 5MB. It takes some serious amount of code to get such crazy file sizes and the main culprit often is using a fancy GUI framework be it in C/C++ or C# or Java, though who the hell would make something like this in Java and have to jump through hoops of DLL calling to get low level access and then extra effort to pack it into an executable since normal people won't know how to run a Java program or a JAR.
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post #88 of 134 (permalink) Old 07-24-2019, 08:33 AM
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Hi,
Yep good stuff a lot to adsorb
970 evo will be new to me

Had other issue popuped and need to be addressed before I can continue playing with m.2's again
Window for returning 8200 pro's mid August.

CPU
i9-9940x With Heatkiller IV Pro and VRM Plexi-Copper water block
Motherboard
ASUS x299 Rampage VI Apex
GPU
Titan Xp with copper Water Block
RAM
Trident Z 3600C16 4x8gb's b-die default timings 16-16-16-36
Hard Drive
Samsung 970 Evo Plus 500gb M.2/ Samsung 850 Pro 256gb for os and 500gb evo for favorite games plus other wd hdd's for data and backup's
Optical Drive
LG Blu-Ray WH16NS40
Power Supply
evga 1200-P2
Cooling
2-280GTX Black Ice Nemesis rads with D5 pump-res combo and D5 top before and after rads.
Case
corsair 450D with added 2nd floor to house radiator on top
Operating System
Win-7 pro & 10 pro Win-7 Primary os.
Monitor
ASUS VG248QE 24" 144Hz
Keyboard
Logitech G910 Orion spectrum
Mouse
Redragon Perdition
Audio
Built in realtek and Insignia 2.0 soundbar HSB318
CPU
i7-5930k with Heatkiller IV Pro Plexi-Copper and koolance vrm water blocks
Motherboard
X99 Sabertooth
GPU
EVGA 1080ti FTW3 with Water block
RAM
Trident-Z 3200C14 4x8gb's b-die default timings 14-14-14-34
Hard Drive
Samsung 970 Evo 500gb M.2/ Samsung 850 Pro 256gb for os and 500gb evo for favorite games plus other wd hdd's for data and backup's
Power Supply
EVGA 1000-P2
Cooling
2-240 GTX Black Ice Nemesis rads/ D5 pump-res combo and D5 top before and after rads.
Case
Corsair 450D with added 2nd floor to house radiator on top
Operating System
Win-7 and 10 pro Win-7 Primary os.
Monitor
AOC G2460PG 24"G-Sync 144Hz
Mouse
Red Dragon Perdition
Audio
Built in realtek and Insignia 2.0 soundbar HSB318
Hard Drive
eLeaf MELO-3 4ml
Power Supply
SE US18650VTC6 3120mAh 30A 3.6V 18650 Li-ion Battery - GREENx4
Case
ANGIS Legion MOD 200w Geek Vape
Operating System
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post #89 of 134 (permalink) Old 07-24-2019, 12:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Update to 12.3 did not change the temperature sensor reading, it stayed the same about 15C below what it should be.

Uploaded the 12.3 update to OP.
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post #90 of 134 (permalink) Old 07-29-2019, 08:47 AM
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Hi,
Got the samsung 970 evo
Didn't get a screen shot but read was just over spec's 3550 read CDM
Write was also just over spec's at 2350
Was a little toastier than the other

Get to return the 8200 pro's to Kohl's for free return trip
Once i get a 325.us gift card credit I'll pick up 1-970 plus 500gb and 1-970 evo 1b for storage maybe 2tb
Although 860 evo 1tb are stupid cheap I saw yesterday.

CPU
i9-9940x With Heatkiller IV Pro and VRM Plexi-Copper water block
Motherboard
ASUS x299 Rampage VI Apex
GPU
Titan Xp with copper Water Block
RAM
Trident Z 3600C16 4x8gb's b-die default timings 16-16-16-36
Hard Drive
Samsung 970 Evo Plus 500gb M.2/ Samsung 850 Pro 256gb for os and 500gb evo for favorite games plus other wd hdd's for data and backup's
Optical Drive
LG Blu-Ray WH16NS40
Power Supply
evga 1200-P2
Cooling
2-280GTX Black Ice Nemesis rads with D5 pump-res combo and D5 top before and after rads.
Case
corsair 450D with added 2nd floor to house radiator on top
Operating System
Win-7 pro & 10 pro Win-7 Primary os.
Monitor
ASUS VG248QE 24" 144Hz
Keyboard
Logitech G910 Orion spectrum
Mouse
Redragon Perdition
Audio
Built in realtek and Insignia 2.0 soundbar HSB318
CPU
i7-5930k with Heatkiller IV Pro Plexi-Copper and koolance vrm water blocks
Motherboard
X99 Sabertooth
GPU
EVGA 1080ti FTW3 with Water block
RAM
Trident-Z 3200C14 4x8gb's b-die default timings 14-14-14-34
Hard Drive
Samsung 970 Evo 500gb M.2/ Samsung 850 Pro 256gb for os and 500gb evo for favorite games plus other wd hdd's for data and backup's
Power Supply
EVGA 1000-P2
Cooling
2-240 GTX Black Ice Nemesis rads/ D5 pump-res combo and D5 top before and after rads.
Case
Corsair 450D with added 2nd floor to house radiator on top
Operating System
Win-7 and 10 pro Win-7 Primary os.
Monitor
AOC G2460PG 24"G-Sync 144Hz
Mouse
Red Dragon Perdition
Audio
Built in realtek and Insignia 2.0 soundbar HSB318
Hard Drive
eLeaf MELO-3 4ml
Power Supply
SE US18650VTC6 3120mAh 30A 3.6V 18650 Li-ion Battery - GREENx4
Case
ANGIS Legion MOD 200w Geek Vape
Operating System
VapeWild RazzleBerry 50-50-0mg nic
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