Samsung 512gig 850 PRO about to die it seems, very low erase cycles - Page 2 - Overclock.net - An Overclocking Community

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Samsung 512gig 850 PRO about to die it seems, very low erase cycles

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post #11 of 29 (permalink) Old 08-28-2019, 10:42 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by JackCY View Post
840 EVO 250GB TLC
37.5 TBW
26.5k hours, over 1097 days
88% wear level

No issues so far. Everything from the system sits on it, so did games, only 1 game's logging/replay folder was relocated to HDD.

No idea where you see erase cycles.

Not everything is shiny on the expensive PRO models.
B1 Wear Leveling Count on CrystalDiskInfo. Given yours has 88% wear level, I expect that value's probably around 120 or so. Which kinda doesn't make sense if it reports 37.5TB host writes unless RAPID mode gooses up the numbers somehow or it's got a lot of spare NAND.
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post #12 of 29 (permalink) Old 08-28-2019, 11:50 AM
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I've been doing computer repair over ten years. At this point it's like a side job for me so I don't do a ton of repairs anymore but that said, I have never had to replace an SSD because it wore out. I've only ever seen an SSD die shortly after it was installed meaning it was just defective. Literally never seen one just wear out so it's definitely worth looking into. I'm sure they do wear out from time to time but it seems to be extremely rare.

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post #13 of 29 (permalink) Old 08-28-2019, 12:35 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by UltraMega View Post
I've been doing computer repair over ten years. At this point it's like a side job for me so I don't do a ton of repairs anymore but that said, I have never had to replace an SSD because it wore out. I've only ever seen an SSD die shortly after it was installed meaning it was just defective. Literally never seen one just wear out so it's definitely worth looking into. I'm sure they do wear out from time to time but it seems to be extremely rare.
Maybe in enterprise workloads.

Consumer workloads, what you'd likely see is random controller failure rather than outright P/E cycle burnout similar to the OP's case.
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post #14 of 29 (permalink) Old 08-30-2019, 03:02 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by JackCY View Post
840 EVO 250GB TLC
37.5 TBW
26.5k hours, over 1097 days
88% wear level

No issues so far. Everything from the system sits on it, so did games, only 1 game's logging/replay folder was relocated to HDD.

No idea where you see erase cycles.

Not everything is shiny on the expensive PRO models.
I have an 840 120 in my laptop and it's still working fine. I have written about 26 TB to it in the past 5 years I've had it and at this rate its P/E will have been exhausted in 20 years. Whether the SSD will last that long is unknown but I haven't experienced any problems with it so far.

Quote: Originally Posted by rui-no-onna View Post
Maybe in enterprise workloads.

Consumer workloads, what you'd likely see is random controller failure rather than outright P/E cycle burnout similar to the OP's case.
This is what I was thinking as well. Controllers fail more often than the NAND chips.

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post #15 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-02-2019, 08:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Drive arrived at the service centre today from DHL tracking, communication from samsung themselves has been very bad to be honest.

Its a £250 drive with 5 years warranty left (so not ditching it and buying a new one ).

Will report back what they declare on the drive, currently using a cheapo spare 120 gig kingston I had sitting idle.

I have moved my entire google folder from userprofile/google to a spindle. I had noticed also that google backup and sync software whenever it has "any" type of operation on a file it will write a copy of that file to the userprofile folder, even if you choose a non system drive for its storage. Chrome doesnt feel any slower other than a slightly slower startup loading my tabs, after that it feels exactly the same performance wise. I would say google software was easily 90% of writes on the system drive.

I have also asked samsung why they asked me if I was using chrome, since they never asked me about any other software, just chrome. Which is what made me investigate chrome writes in the first place.

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post #16 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-02-2019, 08:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote: Originally Posted by UltraMega View Post
I've been doing computer repair over ten years. At this point it's like a side job for me so I don't do a ton of repairs anymore but that said, I have never had to replace an SSD because it wore out. I've only ever seen an SSD die shortly after it was installed meaning it was just defective. Literally never seen one just wear out so it's definitely worth looking into. I'm sure they do wear out from time to time but it seems to be extremely rare.
My 830s have a lot of their rated life left, and I do agree on the main part of the NAND wearout in consumer loads is extremely unlikely, I think whats happened to my drive is either some freak event with the controller failing (as you said defects tend to show early in usage, this is almost 5 years usage tho) or the system part of the nand has exceeded its life as apparently that part of the nand cannot wear level.

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post #17 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-02-2019, 08:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote: Originally Posted by briank View Post
That's interesting that the "system area" which may also be known as the FTL (Flash Translation Layer) has a fixed area of flash on a "Pro" drive. I guess it must be a cost savings measure to save on DRAM where a true enterprise class SSD would keep its FTL and only write to the system NAND area on power down. This type of FTL implementation is probably typical in most modern low cost SSDs though.

I think this limitation of the drives could make the case that good system design is to buy a smaller ~256GB boot SSD and not use your expensive 2TB primary storage SSD as a boot/OS drive. That way you can keep the large drive for a long time and just plan on upgrading your OS drive every 4-5 years.
I think all SSD's ahve the fixed system limitation but the dram cache is supposed to mitigate writes in exactly the way you describe by sending to the dram system cache and only writing to the actual nand at shutdown or maybe at set intervals.

It may well be my system nand is absolutely fine and the issue is caused by something else, the system nand thing was speculation on my part based on what I read from that other website.

Once in windows all data seems readable, albeit slower than normal. The drive only was struggling to operate in a nasty way during post. After I booted up with the kingston, I plugged in the 850 pro to copy the 350 gig games partition to a macrium image and it did it without errors. The drive is not dead in a traditional sense, it was just struggling on post to be recognised and when is recognised could no longer boot windows.

The problem I will have is if samsung declare it to have no fault, as at that point I wont trust the drive anymore.

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post #18 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-02-2019, 09:12 AM
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I re-read the first post again and it sounds like there were no issues with the SSD prior to enabling Windows search. I definitely don't think this is Chrome or FTL NAND wear-out related (mind, Firefox is just as bad when it comes to writes).

After you enabled Windows Search, SSD was at 100% utilization for 2 minutes (I would've just left the system alone longer) when you forced a power cycle which is probably the most common way to cause controller failure (you especially shouldn't do this while the SSD is busy writing).

It's actually a wonder it came back online by itself (e.g. without need for factory mode recovery utility or something). In the early days, that would've bricked a Crucial m4 and several others (although the Intel X25-M was a bit more resilient).
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post #19 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-03-2019, 10:23 AM - Thread Starter
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I forced the power cycle when windows stopped responding, think of what happens if you were to disconnect the system drive, thats what happened.

Whilst a windows search on its first run is reasonable load, under normal circumstances it wont take a flash drive to 100%, especially as by default it uses background i/o priority (slows itself down significantly so its not felt).

Just to further clarify, I did wait a while when it hung, and even the task manager stopped updating its graphs, everything was frozen and eventually the mouse pointer froze also.

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Last edited by chrcoluk; 09-03-2019 at 10:59 AM.
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post #20 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-04-2019, 03:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Well

The RMA status changed to complete on the status page in only one day, it was so quick I wondered if it simply meant accepted the shipment to them.

I had no email updates other than confirmation ssd arrived.

Now on the status page they have shipped it back. No email sent to me, as to the result of their testing so I will know probably tomorrow or friday I guess, when I see if its the same ssd returned. But not the quoted 10 days for testing.

On tracking its still in holland. So I think tomorrow or friday for delivery.

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