Samsung 512gig 850 PRO about to die it seems, very low erase cycles - Overclock.net - An Overclocking Community

Forum Jump: 

Samsung 512gig 850 PRO about to die it seems, very low erase cycles

Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 29 (permalink) Old 08-25-2019, 10:59 PM - Thread Starter
New to Overclock.net
 
chrcoluk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: UK
Posts: 166
Rep: 3 (Unique: 3)
Samsung 512gig 850 PRO about to die it seems, very low erase cycles

Have a 4 year 8 month old SSD, PC its in is 24/7 on.

The type of workload on the PC for the SSD itself I do not consider unusual, basically it hosts OS files, but I have moved the documents, pictures, downloads folders onto a spindle.
Also temporary internet files (cache) are moved to ramdisk which would greatly reduce writes.
For most of this time windows search (indexing) has been disabled which reduces writes to index database (defaults to system drive).
I dont use hibernate.
Steam download cache folder is moved to a spindle.
Pagefile is enabled however.

There is also a games partition where I have about 300 gig of games installed, these are very light on writes tho, as the games dont often get refreshed at all.

This is important to explain so people can picture the load put on the SSD.

From what I can observe whenever I have monitored i/o activity there is a constant stream of small (probably 4k) writes to the ssd, usually with windows updating log files, and page file updates.

Also even tho temporary internet files have been moved, chrome is quite a write heavy browser, it has various internal databases that constantly get updated such as safebrowsing, history, autocomplete, session, and cookies. Observation again indicates mostly small but frequent i/o.

So when I post the stats here, the amount of data written shouldnt be too much of a surprise given the observations. This is with the steam download cache moved, and internet cache moved.

I do have 32 gig of ram, but windows memory management will start using the pagefile before been anywhere near close to 100% ram utilisation.

The internet cache before I moved it was generating about 2-5 gig a day in writes. It was moved when the SSD was about 2 months old.

So the usage data is.

20TB life time writes.
Just 28 erase cycles
99% estimated life left.
POH 2338 days
0 CRC, reallocated etc.

For comparison my oldest SSD which is currently in my laptop and was my main SSD before the 850 pro has these stats. This is a planar MLC 120 gig samsung 830 SSD. No symptoms of failure yet. Note the much higher erase cycles.

POH 2205 days
Erase cycles 438 (way more)
88% life left
9.11TB written
0 CRC etc.

Have a look at this site which explains about the system area of SSDs (this part of SSDs cannot perform wear levelling, its used for sector mapping and other tasks I believe this isnt accounted for in SMART data).

https://blog.elcomsoft.com/2019/01/w...-deal-with-it/

Scroll down to "Why SSD Drives Fail with no SMART Errors"

So the workload I have described kind of fits that case, constant small amounts of i/o rather than things like writing large iso files.

So what are the symptoms?

Well ironically the trigger event was windows search (indexing).

I have decided to use the file history feature to make backups of some files on my system, the way this works if it will by default backup library locations, so I did as documented added the folders I Wanted backed up to libraries, and selected a backup drive. There is one last requirement tho, and that is the locations have to be indexed, so windows search is a requirement. So of course I enabled windows search.

I was watching the i/o in task manager, and was lots of writes going to the 850 pro (with it been the system drive and default location for index is in programdata), and suddenly in task manager the drive went to 100% active state.

I watched and it stayed there for two minutes, I then tried to do things on the computer, as well as browse, chrome stopped responding as it was trying to update its databases, start menu didnt do anything and eventually nothing was working, I could move mouse pointer but thats it.

I hit the reset button on my PC and on post it waited for an eternity and eventually "no boot device found".

I went in the bios and every drive was present except the 850 pro.

Luckily on a power cycle the drive came back.

I have not had a hang in windows since, but doing a new system drive backup, reads were very slow. It was bottlenecking at about 30MB/sec. The spindle it was writing to was not breaking a sweat. If new data is written it can be read back quickly, but old stale data seems hard to read (remember that infamous 840 bug?).

Since the incident I have rebooted 3 times, 2 out of those 3 occasions I had no boot device found. Power cycle required to get it to boot.

Modern 3d nand drives most people claim these are going to last decades because of the claimed endurance ratings, but these drives have a weak point in the system area. However even with that in mind this is my first issue with a SSD I own.

I own 2 samsung 830s which both have had no issues.
This 850 pro which I think will die soon.
A few cheapo kingston small ssd's, they all planar MLC, not used 24/7, except one in my pfsense unit which is business grade mini sata.

Thoughts?

I cannot do a online RMA with samsung, today is a public holiday in the UK, so probably wont be able to start the process until tuesday, I am hoping they have advanced RMA, as obviously with it been my system drive it makes things awkrawd.

Main PC
(12 items)
CPU
8600k
Motherboard
ASRock K6 Fatality Z370
GPU
Auros GTX 1080ti
RAM
Teamgroup 8 gig 3200 x 4
Hard Drive
Samsung 850 Pro
Hard Drive
Samsung 850 EVO
Hard Drive
WD 3TB RED x 4
Hard Drive
WD 4TB RED
Power Supply
Antec HCG Gold 750 Watts
Case
Fractal Design R4
Operating System
Windows 8.1 Pro
Monitor
Benq GW3765HT
▲ hide details ▲

Last edited by chrcoluk; 08-25-2019 at 11:03 PM.
chrcoluk is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 29 (permalink) Old 08-26-2019, 02:34 AM - Thread Starter
New to Overclock.net
 
chrcoluk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: UK
Posts: 166
Rep: 3 (Unique: 3)
Ok started the RMA process, its a 10 working day wait no advanced RMA

I think what I am going to try and do, which may play havoc with the install is import tha macrium image to a spare 120 gig kingston ssd I have as a temporary measure, so I can still use the PC, as 2 weeks is a long time, then do the same again when the new SSD arrives.

I know from past experience tho windows does some weird drive remapping when boot drive changes, and doing this twice I am not happy about.

Main PC
(12 items)
CPU
8600k
Motherboard
ASRock K6 Fatality Z370
GPU
Auros GTX 1080ti
RAM
Teamgroup 8 gig 3200 x 4
Hard Drive
Samsung 850 Pro
Hard Drive
Samsung 850 EVO
Hard Drive
WD 3TB RED x 4
Hard Drive
WD 4TB RED
Power Supply
Antec HCG Gold 750 Watts
Case
Fractal Design R4
Operating System
Windows 8.1 Pro
Monitor
Benq GW3765HT
▲ hide details ▲
chrcoluk is offline  
post #3 of 29 (permalink) Old 08-26-2019, 09:31 PM
New to Overclock.net
 
Liranan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Soviet China... Oh wait..
Posts: 8,660
Rep: 610 (Unique: 295)
Good luck with the RMA, I hope it all gets sorted out soon.

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by faraz1729 go_quote.gif
Haha, Liranan, you creep.

Tacitus - The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws

Only when the last tree has died and the last river been poisoned and the last fish been caught will we realise we cannot eat money. - Cree Indian Proverb
Liranan is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 29 (permalink) Old 08-26-2019, 10:37 PM - Thread Starter
New to Overclock.net
 
chrcoluk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: UK
Posts: 166
Rep: 3 (Unique: 3)
For the curious, I listed i/o activity in resource monitor, in writes order.

Check the amount of chrome hits, there is also a windows log constantly written to related to windows audio glitch detection.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	chromessdkiller.jpg
Views:	19
Size:	463.1 KB
ID:	291828  


Main PC
(12 items)
CPU
8600k
Motherboard
ASRock K6 Fatality Z370
GPU
Auros GTX 1080ti
RAM
Teamgroup 8 gig 3200 x 4
Hard Drive
Samsung 850 Pro
Hard Drive
Samsung 850 EVO
Hard Drive
WD 3TB RED x 4
Hard Drive
WD 4TB RED
Power Supply
Antec HCG Gold 750 Watts
Case
Fractal Design R4
Operating System
Windows 8.1 Pro
Monitor
Benq GW3765HT
▲ hide details ▲
chrcoluk is offline  
post #5 of 29 (permalink) Old 08-27-2019, 09:23 AM
New to Overclock.net
 
sok0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 88
Rep: 5 (Unique: 5)
The amount of time you've already wasted trying to fix/troubleshoot a 5 year old SSD is not worth it considering the price you pay for a brand new latest and greatest SSD.. Just dump it, and move on.

sok0 is offline  
post #6 of 29 (permalink) Old 08-28-2019, 05:24 AM - Thread Starter
New to Overclock.net
 
chrcoluk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: UK
Posts: 166
Rep: 3 (Unique: 3)
The RMA process has already started its not even in my system anymore.

However there is nothing wrong with looking for the reason it happened.

There is a very long bug report on chrome developers bug section regarding the huge amounts of writes the browser carries out and what was interesting is samsung specifically asked me if I use chrome. They didnt ask if I use any other piece of software, just that question.

Also finally your comment is a bit disrespectful to those who are poor, it reads as if buying a new SSD is easy and very affordable for everyone, also that if people lose data it doesnt mean anything.

It is kinda sad people talk as if 5 years old is very old and think it normal routine to dump things after only a couple of years in a throw away type of manner. Funny enough tho the latest and greatest SSD's are worse than the older one's, the SSD's put to market are a downgrade, samsung's QLC drive is their latest and greatest. That may well have died just after a year.

Main PC
(12 items)
CPU
8600k
Motherboard
ASRock K6 Fatality Z370
GPU
Auros GTX 1080ti
RAM
Teamgroup 8 gig 3200 x 4
Hard Drive
Samsung 850 Pro
Hard Drive
Samsung 850 EVO
Hard Drive
WD 3TB RED x 4
Hard Drive
WD 4TB RED
Power Supply
Antec HCG Gold 750 Watts
Case
Fractal Design R4
Operating System
Windows 8.1 Pro
Monitor
Benq GW3765HT
▲ hide details ▲
chrcoluk is offline  
post #7 of 29 (permalink) Old 08-28-2019, 05:47 AM
Overclocking since 1998
 
briank's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 679
Rep: 43 (Unique: 36)
That's interesting that the "system area" which may also be known as the FTL (Flash Translation Layer) has a fixed area of flash on a "Pro" drive. I guess it must be a cost savings measure to save on DRAM where a true enterprise class SSD would keep its FTL and only write to the system NAND area on power down. This type of FTL implementation is probably typical in most modern low cost SSDs though.

I think this limitation of the drives could make the case that good system design is to buy a smaller ~256GB boot SSD and not use your expensive 2TB primary storage SSD as a boot/OS drive. That way you can keep the large drive for a long time and just plan on upgrading your OS drive every 4-5 years.

CPU
7700K Delid @5.1GHz @1.4V
Motherboard
Asus Z270F Strix
GPU
Asus RX480 Strix @ 1400MHz
RAM
Corsair Vengance PC3200 2x8GB
Hard Drive
2 x Intel 530 SSD
Hard Drive
Sandisk Ultra II 960GB
Hard Drive
2 x 3TB HDD
Optical Drive
LG BD-R
Power Supply
Seasonic Prime 750W Titanium
Cooling
Noctua NH-D15
Case
Fractal Define R5
Operating System
Windows 10 Home
Monitor
Dell 27" 1080p
Mouse
Razer DeathAdder
▲ hide details ▲
briank is offline  
post #8 of 29 (permalink) Old 08-28-2019, 09:16 AM
New to Overclock.net
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,795
Rep: 296 (Unique: 218)
Quote: Originally Posted by briank View Post
That's interesting that the "system area" which may also be known as the FTL (Flash Translation Layer) has a fixed area of flash on a "Pro" drive. I guess it must be a cost savings measure to save on DRAM where a true enterprise class SSD would keep its FTL and only write to the system NAND area on power down. This type of FTL implementation is probably typical in most modern low cost SSDs though.
Hmm, looks like it's still stored in DRAM (for performance reasons) but flushed more frequently to NAND due to lack of backup capacitors.

https://image-us.samsung.com/Samsung...-r1-JUL16J.pdf

Quote:
Due to the high cost of capacitors and the price sensitivity of the client SSD market, client SSDs do not normally include full power loss protection in the form of backup power circuitry. While the FTL is frequently flushed from the DRAM to the NAND, there is still a window of opportunity where the DRAM contains a newer version of the FTL in the event of an unexpected power loss. Fortunately, there are alternative and more cost efficient mechanisms to prevent the FTL from corrupting.

Quote: Originally Posted by briank View Post
I think this limitation of the drives could make the case that good system design is to buy a smaller ~256GB boot SSD and not use your expensive 2TB primary storage SSD as a boot/OS drive. That way you can keep the large drive for a long time and just plan on upgrading your OS drive every 4-5 years.
Unfortunately, using the same SSD for boot/OS and storage is sometimes unavoidable (e.g. laptops, NUCs). Although it's good that even ultra small form factor computers nowadays support M.2 + 2.5.
rui-no-onna is offline  
post #9 of 29 (permalink) Old 08-28-2019, 09:46 AM
New to Overclock.net
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,795
Rep: 296 (Unique: 218)
Quote: Originally Posted by chrcoluk View Post
It is kinda sad people talk as if 5 years old is very old and think it normal routine to dump things after only a couple of years in a throw away type of manner.
To be honest, I expect and experience higher failure rates on HDDs (usually around 3 years?) than SSDs. Also, iirc, NAND would lose charge after 10 years so they're really not for archival.

Quote: Originally Posted by chrcoluk View Post
Funny enough tho the latest and greatest SSD's are worse than the older one's, the SSD's put to market are a downgrade, samsung's QLC drive is their latest and greatest. That may well have died just after a year.
Unfortunate, but true. Every die shrink means lower resilience to leakage in terms of NAND itself. We just have better controllers to mitigate.

Mind, I actually did get the planar TLC 840 500GB and 840 EVO 1TB when those were released. I wouldn't consider buying those models at low capacities, though. Also, I actually would consider buying 3D QLC but only at 4TB+.
rui-no-onna is offline  
post #10 of 29 (permalink) Old 08-28-2019, 10:04 AM
Overclocker
 
JackCY's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 10,008
Rep: 339 (Unique: 240)
840 EVO 250GB TLC
37.5 TBW
26.5k hours, over 1097 days
88% wear level

No issues so far. Everything from the system sits on it, so did games, only 1 game's logging/replay folder was relocated to HDD.

No idea where you see erase cycles.

Not everything is shiny on the expensive PRO models.
JackCY is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Overclock.net - An Overclocking Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off