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post #411 of 420 (permalink) Old 01-21-2020, 12:41 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by badben25 View Post
Button down is when your gun in an FPS starts shooting. I think that alone is enough to question why it has to be a full click like you ask?
Not sure if you're still under misunderstanding, or if I'm not understanding your query.

1) That's exactly what I have been saying in my previous posts. Because of the linking to techpowerup and techpowerup using the same term "click latency" (which I'd call "min click durations", as I've explained) I had assumed you're measuring the same here.
2) I never asked for a full click. I did the opposite and pointed out that techpowerup's "click latency" is irrelevant for competitive FPS where input latency matters most.
3) My query was quite simple, I've repeated it and you're still not understanding it.


Let's make this as simple as possible:
Q1) How do you define "Click Latency" as used in #1 in this thread?
Q2) How did you measure the values in the table in #1?




Quote: Originally Posted by cdcd View Post
qsxcv's program records button press events, not button press and button release. Debouncing happens for the button press event, and that's what's measured. This applies to any figures gathered with qsxcv's program, i.e. both the ones in this thread here and on TPU.
The l.exe and r.exe programs measure click duration (mouse down to mouse up event) of the left and right button respectively. a.exe indeed measures difference between left and right mouse down events.


Debouncing dictates min click duration. For input latency (physically pressing the button to the OS receiving the button down event) it is irrelevant.
Which is why your second sentence makes no sense to me and I don't understand your last sentence. Debouncing doesn't happen for the button press event. When the firmware reads a button press it should immediately send this as an event and start debouncing. As such, debouncing doesn't have any effect on input latency.


But as I've already explained above, the firmware could be written to "cheat" with debounce time by delaying sending that initial press event. The l/r.exe programs would then display a shorter click duration even though physically debounce time wasn't worted (that's the cheating part). This would come at the cost of increased input latency.

Last edited by xnoreq; 01-21-2020 at 12:46 PM.
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post #412 of 420 (permalink) Old 01-21-2020, 01:17 PM
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Debouncing absolutely happens at the point I described. If I set the Model O/O-/D to 16 ms debounce, a.exe will return values that are 12 ms higher than at 4 ms debounce. The same is true for Logitech's increased debounce time during lift-off, or ROCCAT's "Zero Debounce" feature, which eliminates debouncing entirely and results in accordingly lower values in a.exe.

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Last edited by cdcd; 01-21-2020 at 01:21 PM.
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post #413 of 420 (permalink) Old 01-21-2020, 02:54 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by cdcd View Post
Debouncing absolutely happens at the point I described. If I set the Model O/O-/D to 16 ms debounce, a.exe will return values that are 12 ms higher than at 4 ms debounce. The same is true for Logitech's increased debounce time during lift-off, or ROCCAT's "Zero Debounce" feature, which eliminates debouncing entirely and results in accordingly lower values in a.exe.
Then that would be the most naive "debouncing" implementation that I didn't think anyone was using as it is essentially a low pass filter that just delays the whole signal which just adds a flat delay.

If this is really the case for these mice then it is shocking as a better implementation (with much lower delay in detecting press/release after a stable period) can be implemented in a few lines of code.
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post #414 of 420 (permalink) Old 01-21-2020, 03:39 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by xnoreq View Post
Then that would be the most naive "debouncing" implementation that I didn't think anyone was using as it is essentially a low pass filter that just delays the whole signal which just adds a flat delay.

If this is really the case for these mice then it is shocking as a better implementation (with much lower delay in detecting press/release after a stable period) can be implemented in a few lines of code.
There are a number of different software debouncing techniques, but they all have at least one drawback, be that delay when pressing, interfering with intentional click spam, or low tolerance to switch wear, resulting in double clicking on a single press, or releasing during a drag. I prefer using the NC contact for debouncing; no delays and the switch has to be in a pretty bad condition before it stops working.

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post #415 of 420 (permalink) Old 01-31-2020, 08:28 AM
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I encountered an issue with my Razer Viper, seems like Razer have coded their firmware for optical switched so, that the first click after mouse lifting is always 7 ms delayed. Then, making it even worse, clicks after that are not delayed, so there is an inconsistency between consecutive clicks. This method is probably supposed to eliminate so called "slam clicks", unintentional mouse switch actuation caused by reckless mouse handling, dropping, slamming.

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post #416 of 420 (permalink) Old 02-01-2020, 12:39 PM
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ROCCAT Kain 100 AIMO: +7.9 ms relative to SteelSeries Ikari w/ ZeroDebounce set to off (default) // +2.9 ms w/ ZeroDebounce set to on

Mice currently owned: Logitech G402/G403/G303/G Pro, Zowie FK1/EC2-A/EC2-B/ZA12, Razer Deathadder 2013/Basilisk, Cooler Master Mastermouse S/MM530/MM520, Roccat Kone Pure Owl-Eye, Dream Machines DM1 Pro S/FPS/DM3 mini, EVGA Torq X3/X5, Ninox Venator, HP Omen 600, Thermaltake Ventus X RGB Optical/Ventus R, Microsoft WMO, Steelseries Rival 310, Nixeus Revel, Ozone Neon M50

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post #417 of 420 (permalink) Old 02-01-2020, 12:51 PM
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What software are you guys using to find latency? And how do you find out what firmware your mouse is using? I googled a bunch and can't find any clear way to tell what fw my first gen Logitech G5 is using.

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post #418 of 420 (permalink) Old 02-01-2020, 02:51 PM
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Post #3 in this thread.

FW version is displayed by software for the mouse.
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post #419 of 420 (permalink) Old 02-06-2020, 01:29 PM
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Corsair Scimitar RGB Elite: +5.9 ms relative to SteelSeries Ikari

Mice currently owned: Logitech G402/G403/G303/G Pro, Zowie FK1/EC2-A/EC2-B/ZA12, Razer Deathadder 2013/Basilisk, Cooler Master Mastermouse S/MM530/MM520, Roccat Kone Pure Owl-Eye, Dream Machines DM1 Pro S/FPS/DM3 mini, EVGA Torq X3/X5, Ninox Venator, HP Omen 600, Thermaltake Ventus X RGB Optical/Ventus R, Microsoft WMO, Steelseries Rival 310, Nixeus Revel, Ozone Neon M50

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post #420 of 420 (permalink) Old 02-13-2020, 12:21 PM
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ASUS ROG Strix Impact II: +11.9 ms relative to SteelSeries Ikari (Button Response: 12 ms within Armoury II, which is the lowest)

Mice currently owned: Logitech G402/G403/G303/G Pro, Zowie FK1/EC2-A/EC2-B/ZA12, Razer Deathadder 2013/Basilisk, Cooler Master Mastermouse S/MM530/MM520, Roccat Kone Pure Owl-Eye, Dream Machines DM1 Pro S/FPS/DM3 mini, EVGA Torq X3/X5, Ninox Venator, HP Omen 600, Thermaltake Ventus X RGB Optical/Ventus R, Microsoft WMO, Steelseries Rival 310, Nixeus Revel, Ozone Neon M50

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