zaunkoenig m1k: 23g mouse (pure fingertip grip) - Page 3 - Overclock.net - An Overclocking Community

Forum Jump: 

zaunkoenig m1k: 23g mouse (pure fingertip grip)

Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #21 of 166 (permalink) Old 06-17-2019, 12:16 PM
New to Overclock.net
 
TranquilTempest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,702
Rep: 78 (Unique: 63)
Quote: Originally Posted by JackCY View Post
Capacitive "hidden" scroll wheel and MMB switch. Swipe the surface to scroll how far you want, tap to click. Maybe some mice have this already, like those crazy Apple etc. who knows, you don't get steps but who cares when you can program it so that in games 1 swipe no matter how long over a threshold = 1 step. More so games often ignore number of steps anyway and filter the user input heavily unfortunately.
Carbon fiber is electrically conductive, so I don't think capacitive touch would work without a design change. I think the metallic looking surfaces with capacitive touch are plastic with mica in the paint. They could always make the scroll section out of plastic I guess.

TranquilTempest is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #22 of 166 (permalink) Old 06-17-2019, 12:57 PM - Thread Starter
lololol
 
qsxcv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 4,243
Rep: 365 (Unique: 152)
Quote: Originally Posted by JackCY View Post
Capacitive "hidden" scroll wheel and MMB switch. Swipe the surface to scroll how far you want, tap to click. Maybe some mice have this already, like those crazy Apple etc. who knows, you don't get steps but who cares when you can program it so that in games 1 swipe no matter how long over a threshold = 1 step. More so games often ignore number of steps anyway and filter the user input heavily unfortunately.
this is what i'd want
no tactile feedback tho

there's also using a non-capacitive touch strip like https://www.adafruit.com/product/178

Quote: Originally Posted by TranquilTempest View Post
Yeah, I think 0.8mm is still too thick to make carbon fiber worthwhile, because it's about twice as dense as ABS, and 1.6mm thick ABS should be plenty stiff for a mouse. Given the difference in young's modulus, they should be looking to get the thickness down to more like 1/4 the thickness you'd use for plastic, or less.
i checked against pencil lead. it's actually more like 0.5mm so there you go

too busy to check forums as regularly
pm me if i forget to respond

Last edited by qsxcv; 06-17-2019 at 01:08 PM.
qsxcv is offline  
post #23 of 166 (permalink) Old 06-17-2019, 01:25 PM
New to Overclock.net
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 32
Rep: 0
I am Patrick Schmalzried aka IPS.Blue, Co-Founder of Zaunkoenig. Thank you all for the feedback so far. I think I can clarify a few things:

Quote: Originally Posted by TranquilTempest View Post
Yeah, I think 0.8mm is still too thick to make carbon fiber worthwhile, because it's about twice as dense as ABS, and 1.6mm thick ABS should be plenty stiff for a mouse. Given the difference in young's modulus, they should be looking to get the thickness down to more like 1/4 the thickness you'd use for plastic, or less.
The prototype qsxcv has is indeed .5 mm all around. We decided to increase wall thickness for the two sides to .8 mm though: this drastically increases stiffness where it is needed the most, as someone using Fingertip Grip grips his mouse at the sides.
One of the advantages of using carbon fiber is that you do not have to use the same wall thickness everywhere. With injection moulding (read: making a normal plastic mouse) using more than one wall thickness is not recommended.

Quote: Originally Posted by MattKelly View Post
I want to get one of these in my hands so badly. For years I've obsessively analyzed physiology / pushing the boundaries of aiming. Reading their blog, it seems Patrick and Dominik have come to many of the same conclusions I have. Will be following this closely and would be very interested in a discussion with these guys.
Thanks, this means a lot to us. I have been thinking about Fingertip Grip since 1998, when I first played StarCraft. Back then I was forced to play with a mouse that was optimized for Palm Grip. More than twenty years later most gaming mice still are optimized for Palm Grip first with some compatibility for Claw Grip or Fingertip Grip second. When designing the M1K we optimized for Fingertip Grip first and only, with zero compatibility for other grips. It is impossible to make a great Palm Grip mouse that also is a great Fingertip Grip mouse.

Quote: Originally Posted by FoxWolf1 View Post
This is a promising start, but just two buttons and no wheel means offloading too many commands to the left hand in games, and having to switch to another mouse for non-gaming tasks.
I disagree regarding offloading too many commands to the left hand: your keyboard hand has access to many more keys than one could ever put on a mouse (though some gaming mice companies have tried their best in creating mice that look like keyboards). The great thing about keyboards is that it does not matter if they are heavy because you put too many keys on it. If you put additional keys in a keyboard there is no weight penalty. A heavy keyboard does not make you a slower player. When you put extra keys in a mouse you have a weight penalty: every time you move the mouse you have to accelerate more mass, which does make you slower. That is why when you want to add a button or wheel to a mouse it will only make sense if you use this function heavily.
Using a gaming mouse for gaming and another mouse for comfortably browsing the web with is a good idea. I would even recommend using a touchpad for browsing the web: that way you can relax your mouse hand. Repetitive stress injuries are very dangerous for professional gamers.

Quote: Originally Posted by kaybee View Post
How do I get my hands on a prototype? How much ? (Serious)
You are not the first one asking for that. Sadly we cannot sell before Kickstarter. Kickstarter does not allow that.
Anyone can contact us of course and explain why they would be a great beta tester.
IPS.Blue is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #24 of 166 (permalink) Old 06-17-2019, 08:56 PM - Thread Starter
lololol
 
qsxcv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 4,243
Rep: 365 (Unique: 152)
8khz usb polling (yes polling is stable, laptop plots are ugly)

too busy to check forums as regularly
pm me if i forget to respond
qsxcv is offline  
post #25 of 166 (permalink) Old 06-17-2019, 11:01 PM
Overclocker
 
JackCY's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 9,991
Rep: 339 (Unique: 240)
Quote: Originally Posted by qsxcv View Post
this is what i'd want
no tactile feedback tho

there's also using a non-capacitive touch strip like https://www.adafruit.com/product/178
I know capacitive exists, and many other of who knows what names, it's all similar old design/techniques of sensing. Touchpads, touchscreens, touch control nothing hard to do nowadays whether the sensor is directly not even a millimeter under surface or it's under a junk of plastic.
Seems like some resistive strip sensitive to pressure for arduino.

For DIY, no idea what some existing part is out there. One will probably find many different ones to choose from. For DIY likely not cheap but then DIY electronics never are cheap.

Apple Magic Mouse it's called, seems they still make and sell it, it's the worst mouse shape ever made but it has this "SciFi" touch capability.

How it looks inside:


M$ also makes at least two: Microsoft touch mouse, ...
And HP, Logitech, ... yeah they do exist but never in any sensible shape or sensor. So the idea to use it for a scroll wheel, heck why not really, they already make whole mice with this.

Carbon fiber conductive... who cares, just coat it and if that doesn't play nice with touch features, well don't use Carbon fiber, use other fiber or inject mold it from plastic. It's not like hand laying and gluing carbon fiber in two or more layers is feasible for any mass production anyway.

Quote: Originally Posted by qsxcv View Post
8khz usb polling (yes polling is stable, laptop plots are ugly)
And this works with any stock OS or does one has to use the hacked USB driver which needs hacking with each Windows update of it? Is it possible for device makers to use above 1000Hz USB on any device (PC, phone, ...)?
JackCY is offline  
post #26 of 166 (permalink) Old 06-17-2019, 11:12 PM - Thread Starter
lololol
 
qsxcv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 4,243
Rep: 365 (Unique: 152)
hacked usb driver of course
i think there's some old post about this but to get 2000 or above polling without messing with drivers requires hi-speed usb which is a lot more work

too busy to check forums as regularly
pm me if i forget to respond
qsxcv is offline  
post #27 of 166 (permalink) Old 06-17-2019, 11:15 PM
New to Overclock.net
 
MattKelly's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 149
Rep: 0
Quote: Originally Posted by senileoldman View Post
Is this a pasta from Leddit.
Figured this was a far simpler message than writing a 12 paragraph novel about aiming mechanics and challenging their blog. I appreciate these forums and a lot of the information here, but there isn't as much discussion regarding physiology and how we can continue to push the limits of human mechanics in FPS. Their blog dives into this a bit and they're on the right track in my opinion. None of the comments before mine seemed to have acknowledged that, and it's something I noticed / appreciated after reading through their blog.
MattKelly is offline  
post #28 of 166 (permalink) Old 06-17-2019, 11:40 PM
Overclocker
 
JackCY's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 9,991
Rep: 339 (Unique: 240)
They talk about zero grams mouse, which is doable but good luck with accuracy as such thing would be tracking your hand, such as camera, etc. Such as VR has tracking.

Do they plan an asymmetric design which reflects the fact that middle and ring finger are longest (at least on male hands). That's where I always run out of mouse size, middle and ring finger. Some mice have that side longer but not many.
2 button mouse is fairly specific use case though, say strategy games StarCraft, ..., but not FPS games at least not for me where I do want 2 side buttons a scroll wheel with a button and I could always use more if it was well placed and usable but that's hard to do and makes little sense on a tiny mouse.

How long is the mouse?
The smallest I could hold is around 8cm length and for comfort 6+cm wide. With usable side buttons likely at least 9cm long.

Tried it with my 9.5-10cm long 5cm wide mouse, 50g.

Last edited by JackCY; 06-17-2019 at 11:51 PM.
JackCY is offline  
post #29 of 166 (permalink) Old 06-18-2019, 12:05 AM - Thread Starter
lololol
 
qsxcv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 4,243
Rep: 365 (Unique: 152)
i'm fairly sure they'll stick with a symmetric design for their first mouse. i doubt that the final design will look much different from the prototype

dont have ruler to measure length but you can judge from the pic comparison to g pro. but it's very short of course. the point is that in a (pure) fingertip grip, the parts near the palm aren't in contact and hence only contribute unnecessary weight, so why not just chop that part off?

too busy to check forums as regularly
pm me if i forget to respond
qsxcv is offline  
post #30 of 166 (permalink) Old 06-18-2019, 12:15 AM
Overclocker
 
JackCY's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 9,991
Rep: 339 (Unique: 240)
Photoshop butchery measurement, 60-65mm of grip length, 75mm total length. 55mm width.
JackCY is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Overclock.net - An Overclocking Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off