zaunkoenig m1k: 23g mouse (pure fingertip grip) - Page 4 - Overclock.net - An Overclocking Community

Forum Jump: 

zaunkoenig m1k: 23g mouse (pure fingertip grip)

Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #31 of 99 (permalink) Old 06-18-2019, 12:16 AM - Thread Starter
lololol
 
qsxcv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 4,202
Rep: 363 (Unique: 150)
i think this should clear things up a bit: this is how it's supposed to be gripped. nothing is even near the palm
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_20190618_001502_1560842146105.jpg
Views:	52
Size:	2.76 MB
ID:	274916  


too busy to check forums as regularly
pm me if i forget to respond
qsxcv is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #32 of 99 (permalink) Old 06-18-2019, 12:24 AM
Overclocker
 
JackCY's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 9,547
Rep: 319 (Unique: 231)
They could round the bottom edge and corners a bit more. Doesn't have to be as aggressive rounding as G403 but at least a little like IE3.0 is rounded. Otherwise it may love to scratch when not at perfect flat angle to surface. Otherwise it looks fine when your hand is small enough to grip it.
JackCY is online now  
post #33 of 99 (permalink) Old 06-18-2019, 05:24 AM
New to Overclock.net
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 19
Rep: 0
Quote: Originally Posted by JackCY View Post
Photoshop butchery measurement, 60-65mm of grip length, 75mm total length. 55mm width.
Good estimates. Grip length is about 65 mm, total length is 79 mm, width is 54 mm at the back and 60 mm at the front. Height is 30 mm.
qsxcv already showed a picture of him gripping the mouse with a Fingertip Grip. To drive this point home really hard: it is impossible to use Claw Grip or Palm Grip for this mouse. The mouse is way too short for that. The second you optimize a pure Fingertip Grip mouse towards Claw Grip or Palm Grip, the mouse will not be optimal for Fingertip Grip anymore, because it now would be too long. As qsxcv already said: the biggest advantage of designing for Fingertip Grip only is that you can make a much shorter mouse, as you dont have to offer support for the palm. This is why Fingertip Grip mice will always have a weight advantage over mice optimized for Claw Grip or Palm Grip.
IPS.Blue is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #34 of 99 (permalink) Old 06-18-2019, 06:12 AM
New to Overclock.net
 
pr0l4nd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 46
Rep: 1 (Unique: 1)
They were some threads about palm vs claw some years ago. But you can create theory about everything: "fingertip is better than palm" but at least try to prove it. Maybe make some study. Don't want to go too offtop, but saying that holding mouse is same as holding pencil is wrong, because in game you can change sensititvity but in real life you can't.
pr0l4nd is offline  
post #35 of 99 (permalink) Old 06-18-2019, 06:32 AM
New to Overclock.net
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 19
Rep: 0
Quote: Originally Posted by pr0l4nd View Post
They were some threads about palm vs claw some years ago. But you can create theory about everything: "fingertip is better than palm" but at least try to prove it.
Fingertip Grip mice are smaller and therefore lighter than other mice. That alone is a huge advantage.
IPS.Blue is offline  
post #36 of 99 (permalink) Old 06-18-2019, 09:39 AM
New to Overclock.net
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 424
Rep: 47 (Unique: 41)
Quote: Originally Posted by IPS.Blue View Post
I disagree regarding offloading too many commands to the left hand: your keyboard hand has access to many more keys than one could ever put on a mouse (though some gaming mice companies have tried their best in creating mice that look like keyboards). The great thing about keyboards is that it does not matter if they are heavy because you put too many keys on it. If you put additional keys in a keyboard there is no weight penalty. A heavy keyboard does not make you a slower player. When you put extra keys in a mouse you have a weight penalty: every time you move the mouse you have to accelerate more mass, which does make you slower. That is why when you want to add a button or wheel to a mouse it will only make sense if you use this function heavily.
Using a gaming mouse for gaming and another mouse for comfortably browsing the web with is a good idea. I would even recommend using a touchpad for browsing the web: that way you can relax your mouse hand. Repetitive stress injuries are very dangerous for professional gamers.
What you are missing is that moving more commands to the keyboard means reaching further to press a button, greatly reducing speed and accuracy, as well as having an impact on other commands (e.g. losing movement control while reaching for a key on the right side of the keyboard). You could maybe get away with it in some games, but for others it's already a struggle to find enough rapidly accessible places to put commands with a mouse that has three buttons and a wheel but lacks side buttons.

I've been an advocate of small, light mice and fingertip grip for many years now. I agree in principle with much of your theorycrafting regarding the importance of light weight and small physical size, especially for fingertip grip, where the size of the mouse is inversely proportional to the controllable range of motion available to the user by finger movement (and a larger range of motion means that the user can use a lower sensitivity, improving accuracy). But there is such a thing as going too far; I'd be much more interested in a mouse in the 40-50g range that doesn't force me to offload as much to my left hand, even if the way the additional command points are implemented has to be unconventional (membranes? touch strips? a tiny TrackPont-style joystick?) to save weight.

Also, it's worth noting that not all mice of the same size and weight are equally controllable. A slightly heavier mouse that affords better grip, whether because of surface materials, surface features (dimples, holes, etc.), shape, or some combination of the above can sometimes offer better physical control. I have to wonder whether a slippery carbon box is really the way to go, or if it might be worth spending a little extra weight to afford the user better purchase on the device. Worth considering at least, I think.

FoxWolf1 is offline  
post #37 of 99 (permalink) Old 06-18-2019, 10:52 AM
New to Overclock.net
 
TranquilTempest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,685
Rep: 78 (Unique: 63)
Quote: Originally Posted by IPS.Blue View Post

The prototype qsxcv has is indeed .5 mm all around. We decided to increase wall thickness for the two sides to .8 mm though: this drastically increases stiffness where it is needed the most, as someone using Fingertip Grip grips his mouse at the sides.
One of the advantages of using carbon fiber is that you do not have to use the same wall thickness everywhere. With injection moulding (read: making a normal plastic mouse) using more than one wall thickness is not recommended.

It doesn't sound right that the sides are thicker, the span is much smaller, so you should need less. Maybe you aren't transferring those forces to the bottom plate? I guess there's a tradeoff between more wall thickness or more screws.


With injection molding you can add ribs where you need more stiffness. I think you can also use different wall thicknesses, as long as you account for shrinkage.

With carbon fiber I'd suggest starting with as thin a shell as you can physically make, and then adding thin reinforcement strips only where you need it.

TranquilTempest is offline  
post #38 of 99 (permalink) Old 06-18-2019, 11:35 AM
Overclocker
 
JackCY's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 9,547
Rep: 319 (Unique: 231)
Quote: Originally Posted by IPS.Blue View Post
Fingertip Grip mice are smaller and therefore lighter than other mice. That alone is a huge advantage.
Depends on application so I won't even go into discussing what grip is better for what, what weight is better for what use case.
Each has it's use where it is better.

If you take a G403 and chop it off behind side buttons, that's how long I need a mouse to be to even be able to grip it at all with fingers. That's 8cm of grip length, + what ever bump on the back you want to make or not but there doesn't need to be any at all and just carve it out away if you don't want to rest knuckles on there because for that it would need to be way longer.
JackCY is online now  
post #39 of 99 (permalink) Old 06-18-2019, 12:23 PM
New to Overclock.net
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 19
Rep: 0
Quote: Originally Posted by FoxWolf1 View Post
What you are missing is that moving more commands to the keyboard means reaching further to press a button, greatly reducing speed and accuracy, as well as having an impact on other commands (e.g. losing movement control while reaching for a key on the right side of the keyboard). You could maybe get away with it in some games, but for others it's already a struggle to find enough rapidly accessible places to put commands with a mouse that has three buttons and a wheel but lacks side buttons.

I've been an advocate of small, light mice and fingertip grip for many years now. I agree in principle with much of your theorycrafting regarding the importance of light weight and small physical size, especially for fingertip grip, where the size of the mouse is inversely proportional to the controllable range of motion available to the user by finger movement (and a larger range of motion means that the user can use a lower sensitivity, improving accuracy). But there is such a thing as going too far; I'd be much more interested in a mouse in the 40-50g range that doesn't force me to offload as much to my left hand, even if the way the additional command points are implemented has to be unconventional (membranes? touch strips? a tiny TrackPont-style joystick?) to save weight.
Personally I play SC:R, SC2 and CS:GO and I dont feel like I have to overly reach for keys on my keyboard. That I sometimes have to move my keyboard fingers a little more to reach a key is an acceptable price considering the disadvantages additional mouse buttons have.
In StarCraft it is like this: left click and right click are the two most important game inputs as you use them to select units and move them. The moment you press a third mouse button with your index finger for example, you cannot use your index finger to select units: huge opportunity costs. In CS:GO primary fire is on the left button, so moving your index finger comes with the high opportunity cost that you temporarily are not able to fire your weapon.
Of course you could use your thumb for example to press a side button. When using Fingertip Grip the thumb however is really important for stabilizing the mouse. Moving the thumb weakens your grip and therefore your control.
Add to that the fact that additional mouse buttons can accidentally be triggered (distracting) and increase the weight (makes all of your movements slower).
Maybe there are games that require five or more mouse buttons, because the utility of these mouse buttons outweighs the disadvantages. In that case the Zaunkoenig M1K would not the optimal mouse. That is okay though: the Zaunkoenig M1K is not for everyone. That was one of our primary design goals: to make a mouse that is not for everyone so that it could be the best mouse for some. I cannot force you to use our mouse. But ask yourself: are the things you use your mouse buttons three and up for really that critical? Or are you maybe just used to them?

Quote: Originally Posted by FoxWolf1 View Post
Also, it's worth noting that not all mice of the same size and weight are equally controllable. A slightly heavier mouse that affords better grip, whether because of surface materials, surface features (dimples, holes, etc.), shape, or some combination of the above can sometimes offer better physical control. I have to wonder whether a slippery carbon box is really the way to go, or if it might be worth spending a little extra weight to afford the user better purchase on the device. Worth considering at least, I think.
I fully agree that grip is very important and worth a little extra weight. I think however that it is a mistake when a manufacturer glues a grippy rubber all over the sides of his mouse. For the following three reasons:
a) It saves weight when the user puts grip tape on the mouse only on the spots where he actually grips, but nowhere else. When the manufacturer puts grippy rubber all over the sides because he does not know where the user will grip exactly this increases weight unnecessarily.
b) There are those who like glossy surfaces more than rubbery or rough ones. When you make the mouse non-glossy, what should someone who likes glossy surfaces do? Gloss tape is not a thing, as opposed to grip tape.
c) Over time every grippy surface becomes less grippy. When your mouse comes equipped with a grippy rubber surface glued onto the plastic you will have a bad time replacing it. Rough plastic will become smooth over time. Removing a used grip tape and replacing it with fresh one is very easy and ensures you always have the best grip possible.
I have tested several grip tapes so far (among others: Artisan Teppeki, GT-5000 Grip Tape, Wilson Pro Overgrip). My favorite so far: Wilson Pro Overgrip. The tennis players are onto something here.

Quote: Originally Posted by TranquilTempest View Post
It doesn't sound right that the sides are thicker, the span is much smaller, so you should need less. Maybe you aren't transferring those forces to the bottom plate? I guess there's a tradeoff between more wall thickness or more screws.
The front or back of the mouse dont get gripped, so they do not need to be as stiff. The sides are where the mouse is gripped: this is where you need stiffness the most, because a mouse shell that flexes when you grip it is distracting and not worth the weight savings.

Quote: Originally Posted by TranquilTempest View Post
With injection molding you can add ribs where you need more stiffness. I think you can also use different wall thicknesses, as long as you account for shrinkage.

With carbon fiber I'd suggest starting with as thin a shell as you can physically make, and then adding thin reinforcement strips only where you need it.
Yes, you can try getting fancy with injection moulding. There are limits though. There is a reason that ultralight stuff is commonly not made out of ABS plastic, but carbon fiber: be it bike frames or drones. Gaming mice are made out of ABS plastic not because ABS is the best material for that, but because its the cheapest to massproduce.
IPS.Blue is offline  
post #40 of 99 (permalink) Old 06-18-2019, 01:07 PM
New to Overclock.net
 
TranquilTempest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,685
Rep: 78 (Unique: 63)
Quote: Originally Posted by IPS.Blue View Post


The front or back of the mouse dont get gripped, so they do not need to be as stiff. The sides are where the mouse is gripped: this is where you need stiffness the most, because a mouse shell that flexes when you grip it is distracting and not worth the weight savings.


Yes, you can try getting fancy with injection moulding. There are limits though. There is a reason that ultralight stuff is commonly not made out of ABS plastic, but carbon fiber: be it bike frames or drones. Gaming mice are made out of ABS plastic not because ABS is the best material for that, but because its the cheapest to massproduce.
Carbon fiber is commonly used as a lighter replacement for metal parts, or a stronger replacement for plastic, not as a lighter replacement for a part that doesn't really need a whole lot of strength to begin with. I know from direct experience vacuum forming a mouse shell that 1mm to 1.5mm thick plastic is plenty strong enough for the side grips, Considering carbon fiber composite is about 100 times stronger than plastic, and twice as dense, I have a hard time believing 0.8mm carbon fiber is necessary there. Honestly, you could probably make most of the shell around 0.25mm thick. If you want carbon fiber because it looks and sounds cool, great, but I really don't think you're yet at a weight that can't be matched by plastic.

TranquilTempest is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Overclock.net - An Overclocking Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off