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zaunkoenig m1k: 23g mouse (pure fingertip grip)

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post #41 of 166 (permalink) Old 06-18-2019, 01:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote: Originally Posted by TranquilTempest View Post
Considering carbon fiber composite is about 100 times stronger than plastic, and twice as dense
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flexural_rigidity
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_moment_of_area

100x higher youngs modulus means 100^(1/3) = 4.6 times thinner for the same flexural rigidity

considering the lack of ribs or other reinforcement for the top shell, it's reasonable to use something around 0.5-0.8mm

anyway i can tell you that with my prototype, it is functionally stiff enough, but if you look carefully you can see it flexes more than most abs mice

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post #42 of 166 (permalink) Old 06-18-2019, 01:53 PM
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Well, most ABS mice are in no way optimized for weight. Even the ones with a bunch of holes aren't using the right pattern to maximize rigidity, the honeycomb shape only really works when it's backed by a sheet to keep the hexagons hexagon shaped. If you're using a space frame you should be using triangular holes.

It's extremely relevant how the sides are flexing,

is the top wiggling side to side with respect to the bottom, like a parallelogram?
Are the sides bending inward when gripped? If the latter, are they bending inward at the bottom or in the middle?

Making the sides thicker would only really make sense in that last case. In the first case I'd try a narrow reinforcing strip from the left side, along the top(right behind the buttons) to the right side. If it's bending in at the bottom, you need to better transfer the forces to the bottom plate.


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post #43 of 166 (permalink) Old 06-18-2019, 02:06 PM - Thread Starter
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top of the sides bend inwards by like 0.3mm or so when gripped very firmly (3-4x more firm than anyone would grip it in normal use). so functionally the stiffness is completely sufficient, but it is detectably less stiff than most thick walled abs mice. this might be worth addressing as it affects perceived build quality

a big part of this that this is a 1 piece shell and there is absolutely no support across the buttons. i.e. the stiffness is similar to that of a cylinder

yea all those companies doing stupid hexagon holes should add a smooth exterior sheet. stiffer and doesn't look like ass (actually, this is what the base of the m1k does)

Quote: Originally Posted by TranquilTempest View Post
I really don't think you're yet at a weight that can't be matched by plastic.
plastic with interior reinforcements: yea probably

iirc the top shell is around 8g weight currently
at some point (around 15g i imagine) the weight of the mouse becomes less important than the effects of the cable. at which point you go wireless

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Last edited by qsxcv; 06-18-2019 at 02:22 PM.
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post #44 of 166 (permalink) Old 06-18-2019, 02:25 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by qsxcv View Post
top of the sides bend inwards by like 0.3mm or so when gripped very firmly (3-4x more firm than anyone would grip it in normal use). so functionally the stiffness is completely sufficient, but it is detectably less stiff than most thick walled abs mice. this might be worth addressing as it affects perceived build quality

a big part of this that this is a 1 piece shell and there is absolutely no support across the buttons. i.e. the stiffness is similar to that of a cylinder
Yes, perceived build quality is an issue with trying to minimize weight, though I think you'll always get complaints about buttons wiggling, even if there's no functional problem.

I do know what you're talking about with the one piece shell, it's similar to my vacuum formed shell. My rigidity problems basically disappeared once I attached the shell to the bottom plate. Though in my mouse the cuts for the buttons don't go quite so far back, so there's a bit more torsional strength in the back of the mouse.
Quote:
iirc the top shell is around 8g weight currently
I think my top shell is about 10g(calculated from density and sheet thickness), though the whole mouse is probably closer to 50. I don't have a scale though, so I can't be certain.


Last edited by TranquilTempest; 06-18-2019 at 02:32 PM.
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post #45 of 166 (permalink) Old 06-18-2019, 03:28 PM
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Use a kitchen scale.

Are you "man enough"? Can you crush it in your hand? The strength durability test. The ultimate durability test is to give to a 4 year old, I give it 4 hours before it disintegrates.
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post #46 of 166 (permalink) Old 06-18-2019, 03:42 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by JackCY View Post
Use a kitchen scale.

Are you "man enough"? Can you crush it in your hand? The strength durability test. The ultimate durability test is to give to a 4 year old, I give it 4 hours before it disintegrates.
Don't have a kitchen scale, most recipes here measure things by volume.

And I think any mouse would get got by a 4 year old. Unless you specifically design it to survive attempts to peel the buttons off.

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post #47 of 166 (permalink) Old 06-18-2019, 10:28 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by qsxcv View Post
top of the sides bend inwards by like 0.3mm or so when gripped very firmly (3-4x more firm than anyone would grip it in normal use). so functionally the stiffness is completely sufficient, but it is detectably less stiff than most thick walled abs mice. this might be worth addressing as it affects perceived build quality

a big part of this that this is a 1 piece shell and there is absolutely no support across the buttons. i.e. the stiffness is similar to that of a cylinder

yea all those companies doing stupid hexagon holes should add a smooth exterior sheet. stiffer and doesn't look like ass (actually, this is what the base of the m1k does)


plastic with interior reinforcements: yea probably

iirc the top shell is around 8g weight currently
at some point (around 15g i imagine) the weight of the mouse becomes less important than the effects of the cable. at which point you go wireless
May I ask why this cable's so good? The cables I make here on Brazil have around 2 meters and weights about 17 grams with everything included (jst and usb connectors). Using Paracord 100 the weight goes down to about 12~13 grams.

What make that cable so special? Isn't the coefficient of fricton from nylon very low already? Polypropylene like the ones I made have even lower values...
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post #48 of 166 (permalink) Old 06-19-2019, 12:20 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by TranquilTempest View Post
Carbon fiber is commonly used as a lighter replacement for metal parts, or a stronger replacement for plastic, not as a lighter replacement for a part that doesn't really need a whole lot of strength to begin with.
Just to make this point clear: In mice stiffness is more important than strength. See the images on this page: http://www.magic-scooter.de/fvw1.htm
When the wings of an airplane break, they were not strong enough. When they bend however they were not stiff enough. A 0.25 mm carbon fiber mouse shell would be problematic not because it would easily break, but because it would flex too much. And this flexing would just be distracting. For a 0.25 mm carbon fiber shell you would have to use internal support structures. I mean think about it: 0.25 mm is like three pieces of paper: its really thin.


Quote: Originally Posted by TranquilTempest View Post
Yes, perceived build quality is an issue with trying to minimize weight, though I think you'll always get complaints about buttons wiggling, even if there's no functional problem.
For our first mouse we decided to stay on the safe side and increase stiffness. Its not like there is any other mouse close to the weight of the M1K, so we can afford one or two grams of extra weight.


Quote: Originally Posted by TranquilTempest View Post
And I think any mouse would get got by a 4 year old. Unless you specifically design it to survive attempts to peel the buttons off.
True. ^^


Quote: Originally Posted by daniloberserk View Post
May I ask why this cable's so good? The cables I make here on Brazil have around 2 meters and weights about 17 grams with everything included (jst and usb connectors). Using Paracord 100 the weight goes down to about 12~13 grams.

What make that cable so special? Isn't the coefficient of fricton from nylon very low already? Polypropylene like the ones I made have even lower values...
Our cable is like 8 grams per meter. Further more it has a really slick surface, is flexible and yet very robust. Its a combination of using polyurethane (PUR) for the jacket and using finely stranded conductors.
Each of the conductors consists of 19 individual wires; the standard for a USB cable is 7 wires per conductor. I wrote an article about the optimal gaming mouse cable, you might want to give that a read.
I think the only way to get a cable jacket with a lower coefficient of friction than PUR would be using a PTFE cable. However a PTFE cable that size is way too stiff (believe me, I have one ).
I dont like Paracord instead of a normal cable jacket: the fibers in the Paracord can get caught in the fibers of cloth mousepads, which feels terrible.
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post #49 of 166 (permalink) Old 06-19-2019, 02:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote: Originally Posted by qsxcv View Post
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flexural_rigidity
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_moment_of_area

100x higher youngs modulus means 100^(1/3) = 4.6 times thinner for the same flexural rigidity
in case this wasn't clear, stiffness scales roughly as thickness^3
(this is also why a ribbed structure is stiffer than a flat structure given the same weight, since x^3 is convex for x>0)

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post #50 of 166 (permalink) Old 06-19-2019, 02:07 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by qsxcv View Post
in case this wasn't clear, stiffness scales roughly as thickness^3
(this is also why a ribbed structure is stiffer than a flat structure given the same weight, since x^3 is convex for x>0)
Yeah, a few pages back I mentioned being able to use about 1/4 thickness you'd use for plastic, and this is why. Right now it's at about half the thickness you'd need for plastic. Exact thickness you need does depend on shape, flat stuff needs to be thicker than curved stuff to get the same rigidity. In any case, the point is that there's still room for improvement.


Last edited by TranquilTempest; 06-19-2019 at 02:12 PM.
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