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post #21 of 239 (permalink) Old 03-04-2020, 11:26 PM
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Sigh, are we just going to complain about tactility here without even getting first-hand experience (or reading opinions of people who have first-hand experience) of the implementation on this mouse? We spent significant time and effort on improving the tactility of M1/M2 buttons. Maybe don't shun it until you try it?




Quote: Originally Posted by Zammin View Post
It's all for marketing purposes. It's so they can put "super l33t zero latency optical laser switches" on the box. The same reason Logitech and so many other big manufacturers use those Omron D2FC-F-K switches, so they can say "50 MILLION CLICKS" on the box. Those 50M click switches are one of the least liked switches and are notorious for developing double-clicking, especially in mice like the GPW. But they still use them because 50M clicks sounds better than 20M or 10M to the average buyer, even if the switches with lower life spans have better tactility.
The fundamental issue with lifecycle claims of mechanical switches is the difference between test conditions and real-life conditions. In test conditions, the switches get put under a click-machine for 200 days straight in a lab, doing 3 clicks per second, and show no issues. Whereas in real-life the switches are exposed to oils, sweat, dust, salt, moisture, sulpher dioxide, temperatures, gamer-rage, backpack transport, all of which can accelerate the corrosion/wear of contact points, meaning they can fail much sooner than their rated lifespans.

Thankfully optical switches are not prone to these issues, however for the sake of full transparency, the lifecycle claims of optical switches have an asterisk to them as well... if you have you mouse turned on for 10 years straight, the IR LED can just burn out without ever making a single click. But IMO, it's a better tradeoff than the inadvertent double-clicking that mechanical switches will develop (especially if there isn't a massive debounce delay).

Last edited by Razer_TheFiend; 03-04-2020 at 11:49 PM.
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post #22 of 239 (permalink) Old 03-05-2020, 12:04 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Razer_TheFiend View Post
Sigh, are we just going to complain about tactility here without even getting first-hand experience (or checking reviews) of the implementation on this mouse? We spent significant time and effort on improving the tactility of M1/M2 buttons. Maybe don't shun it until you try it?
For the record I'm certainly not doubting the improvements in feel of the optical switches in the Viper Mini, I believe Badseed Tech's review where he says they feel better than the previous Vipers switches. That's why I mentioned it on the previous page. I won't be buying the Viper Mini because it's way too small for me, so I won't get to try them firsthand but I do have the Viper and VU and while the feel of the optical switches in those mice isn't great, it certainly wasn't a deal breaker for me.

Quote: Originally Posted by Razer_TheFiend View Post
The fundamental issue with lifecycle claims of mechanical switches is the difference between test conditions and real-life conditions. In test conditions, the switches get put under a click-machine for 200 days straight in a lab, doing 3 clicks per second, and show no issues. Whereas in real-life the switches are exposed to oils, sweat, dust, salt, moisture, sulpher dioxide, temperatures, gamer-rage, backpack transport, all of which can accelerate the corrosion/wear of contact points, meaning they can fail much sooner than their rated lifespans.

Thankfully optical switches are not prone to these issues, however for the sake of full transparency, the lifecycle claims of optical switches have an asterisk to them as well... if you have you mouse turned on for 10 years straight, the IR LED can just burn out without ever making a single click. But IMO, it's a better tradeoff than the inadvertent double-clicking that mechanical switches will develop (especially if there isn't a massive debounce delay).
Thank you for the detailed explanation and additional info regarding the Razer optical switches. It's interesting to know about the LED burn out, that's something I hadn't thought of. I do still believe that having a 50M+ click lifespan is still a factor in marketing, the same as advertising sensors with 16,000-20,000DPI. It's not something the end user is going to really benefit from but it looks good on the box and product page. I think other parts of the mouse would wear out or the mouse itself would be replaced before the switches are clicked tens of millions of times, and I can't personally feel the difference in latency between an optical switch and a mechanical one.

I haven't experienced the double-clicking issue on any of my mice yet but you hear about it on D2FC-F-K equipped mice most often, so I can only assume there's something about that switch that makes it more prone to the issue than others.

Let me know if the improved switches in the Viper Mini become available by themselves and I might buy some to try out in my standard Viper, from memory the switch body just pops out of the PCB and back in yeah?

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post #23 of 239 (permalink) Old 03-05-2020, 12:09 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by r0ach View Post
Razer is like a standard, bloated, zombie corporation at this point on cruise control like every other corporation in America if they can't figure out after making mice for a few decades what type of switches people like and don't like in mice. Before they spend a cent engineering switches they should already know what they want them to feel and sound like in the end, but it seems they don't. And if people don't like them, they don't seem to understand when to cut their losses and switch to something else. This is the textbook definition of zombie corporation.
Learn how to read.

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post #24 of 239 (permalink) Old 03-05-2020, 12:12 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Elrick View Post
I do love any Huano switch. LOVE them to death.



But for the young crowd, who still love these Zombies. They are for them, the penultimate gaming company out there.

It's like watching another episode of the Walking Dead, where Negan belts the Zombie Freaks over and over again for choosing Razer Corp. Then later watching them squirm around in pieces, as they try to justify their purchase .
And yet you bought one?

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post #25 of 239 (permalink) Old 03-05-2020, 12:46 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Razer_TheFiend View Post
Sigh, are we just going to complain about tactility here without even getting first-hand experience (or reading opinions of people who have first-hand experience) of the implementation on this mouse? We spent significant time and effort on improving the tactility of M1/M2 buttons. Maybe don't shun it until you try it?






The fundamental issue with lifecycle claims of mechanical switches is the difference between test conditions and real-life conditions. In test conditions, the switches get put under a click-machine for 200 days straight in a lab, doing 3 clicks per second, and show no issues. Whereas in real-life the switches are exposed to oils, sweat, dust, salt, moisture, sulpher dioxide, temperatures, gamer-rage, backpack transport, all of which can accelerate the corrosion/wear of contact points, meaning they can fail much sooner than their rated lifespans.

Thankfully optical switches are not prone to these issues, however for the sake of full transparency, the lifecycle claims of optical switches have an asterisk to them as well... if you have you mouse turned on for 10 years straight, the IR LED can just burn out without ever making a single click. But IMO, it's a better tradeoff than the inadvertent double-clicking that mechanical switches will develop (especially if there isn't a massive debounce delay).
Any chance the Viper has improved buttons also? Mine is on the way to RMA for having a loose clunky RMB

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post #26 of 239 (permalink) Old 03-05-2020, 01:34 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Zammin View Post
For the record I'm certainly not doubting the improvements in feel of the optical switches in the Viper Mini, I believe Badseed Tech's review where he says they feel better than the previous Vipers switches. That's why I mentioned it on the previous page. I won't be buying the Viper Mini because it's way too small for me, so I won't get to try them firsthand but I do have the Viper and VU and while the feel of the optical switches in those mice isn't great, it certainly wasn't a deal breaker for me.
Yup, that wasn't pointed at you, which is why I put that before the quote.


Quote: Originally Posted by Zammin View Post
Thank you for the detailed explanation and additional info regarding the Razer optical switches. It's interesting to know about the LED burn out, that's something I hadn't thought of. I do still believe that having a 50M+ click lifespan is still a factor in marketing, the same as advertising sensors with 16,000-20,000DPI. It's not something the end user is going to really benefit from but it looks good on the box and product page. I think other parts of the mouse would wear out or the mouse itself would be replaced before the switches are clicked tens of millions of times, and I can't personally feel the difference in latency between an optical switch and a mechanical one.

I haven't experienced the double-clicking issue on any of my mice yet but you hear about it on D2FC-F-K equipped mice most often, so I can only assume there's something about that switch that makes it more prone to the issue than others.

Let me know if the improved switches in the Viper Mini become available by themselves and I might buy some to try out in my standard Viper, from memory the switch body just pops out of the PCB and back in yeah?
It is definitely a factor in marketing, no denying that. I think the fact that the D2FC-50M switches are some of the most widespread switches also makes them seem like they're more prone to issues. If we roll back the years, we can still find double click issues with all sorts of mice even before that switch came along.

The switches by itself isn't different on the Viper Mini, Viper, or Viper Ultimate. You can already swap them across each other, but it won't make a difference. It's the mechanical mounting, plunger, shell and keycover design updates that improve the key feel.
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post #27 of 239 (permalink) Old 03-05-2020, 01:45 AM
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I won't be buying the VM but I'm sad to hear the VM has better buttons than my VU

I really wish whatever logitech did with the G303 buttons gets adopted. God that that click was so satisfying.
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post #28 of 239 (permalink) Old 03-05-2020, 02:28 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Razer_TheFiend View Post
In test conditions, the switches get put under a click-machine for 200 days straight in a lab, doing 3 clicks per second
MOBA players in games like League of Legends (at gold/platinum? or higher) have to click faster than that, which is why the button clicks REALLY REALLY matter. Since MOBA games are a higher market share than FPS is right now, mouse companies cannot just throw out any random nonsense experimental buttons that don't work in MOBAs at all.

Even the clicks on a G302/G303 are a huge upgrade for activities like this over a regular Omron implementation on a mouse like the Model O, so comparing a Huano or experimental Razer switch to the G302 buttons is the equivalent of trying to play with a metal garbage can lid for a mouse button.

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post #29 of 239 (permalink) Old 03-05-2020, 04:07 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by r0ach View Post
MOBA players in games like League of Legends (at gold/platinum? or higher) have to click faster than that, which is why the button clicks REALLY REALLY matter. Since MOBA games are a higher market share than FPS is right now, mouse companies cannot just throw out any random nonsense experimental buttons that don't work in MOBAs at all.

Even the clicks on a G302/G303 are a huge upgrade for activities like this over a regular Omron implementation on a mouse like the Model O, so comparing a Huano or experimental Razer switch to the G302 buttons is the equivalent of trying to play with a metal garbage can lid for a mouse button.

The logitech G303 uses D2FC-F-7N, those switches are prone to doube clicking issues as they need quite a lot of amps do be operated, which modern circuits apparently cant deliver. also they sound terrible, have a high pitched noise. this is NOT a role model by any stretch of the imagination.



I might buy the razer viper mini just BECAUSE of the switches. Razer innovated at just the right place. latency > all
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post #30 of 239 (permalink) Old 03-05-2020, 06:56 AM
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Dude, what planet do you live on? G302 buttons are NOT loud or high pitched whatsoever. They're some of the quietest buttons on any mouse I've ever owned. The buttons on the Endgame XM1 are WAY WAY higher pitched and those are 50m Omrons. Those buttons sound like a wine glass breaking. It's almost to the point of being weaponized sound waves or nails on a chalkboard.

Not to mention the other problem of the XM1 where they have enormous post-travel that causes the button to rebound a large distance with a loud 'thunk' sound each time. I'm not sure if it's correct, but people seem to claim these newer 50m Omrons require a larger actuation distance for some reason. If that's true, the larger movement range would probably inherently make louder button noise like my example on the XM1. But mouse acoustics also vary due to the shell and how enclosed or hollow it is.

Besides the metal springs contributing to very responsive rebound, G302 buttons are very short for actuation distance which contributes to their ease of button spamming and quiet nature. It's kind of similar to keyboard mechanical switches where typing on regular brown switches feel like garbage and worse than a membrane keyboard due to huge actuation distance making it so you type slower - not to mention being loud. But then you add 40A-R O-rings and actuation distance seems to be cut in half while also becoming quiet and then they rival or beat membrane keyboards in type speed and general button quality.

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Last edited by r0ach; 03-05-2020 at 07:10 AM.
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