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post #1 of 76 (permalink) Old 07-03-2020, 01:56 AM - Thread Starter
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The only non-paid shill post mouse roundup on the entire internet 2020 edition

First, I'm going to start off by saying that Logitech's sensor implementations are usually better than competitor brands. Steelseries seems like the only company I've seen release sensors as good or better than Logitech: Sensei 310 shape was too wide and rubber grips were terrible, but their 3360 implementation was as good or better than Logitech. Lots of off-brand 3360's I've tried were horrifically bad and didn't measure up to Logitech's or Steelseries at all.

As for the other elephant in the room (Razer), ALL of their sensors have been worse than Logitech and Steelseries' implementations for me. Their mice identify themselves to Windows as 1 mouse + 2 keyboards while normal mice identify themselves to Windows as 1 mouse 1 keyboard, so my theory is they bloat their firmware with Synapse garbage which causes them to somehow not track as good. Either that or just the mere addition of another virtual keyboard degrades performance in use due to the way Windows reacts to them.

Now on to the mouse roundup. In no particular order:

1) Model O and Model O-: While these mice aren't terrible, they're probably the most overhyped mice ever created. I'm average height with medium sized hands and the larger version is kinda too big for claw and fingertip use. The O- size works good for claw and fingertip grip, but then you hit the complete showstopper issue.

For some stupid reason, Glorious ships mice with the lowest LOD of just about any mouse ever created. No other 3360's and 3366's have LOD this low. A mouse that's 58 grams and ridiculously small will constantly lift off the pad completely and cause you to lose tracking due to the anemic LOD. They allow you to change the LOD by 1mm in the driver settings, but this is not a solution. Raising the LOD makes the tracking feel worse than default LOD for whatever reason.

As for the clicks, they're not terrible, but not as good as Logitech or Steelseries 3360 era mice. If you try to spam click with a Model O, the clicks don't really rebound fast/well, so they feel like they get kinda stuck in a rut and you can't spam click nearly as effectively as a Logitech or Steelseries with better clicks. Seeing as how you have major problems with the sensor of this mouse due to the anemic LOD and the clicks are just average at best, I'm not sure how people claim this mouse is better than the sum of it's parts.

It's very hard to compare tracking of the Model O- vs that of Logitech's 3366 and Steelseries' 3360 due to the huge weight and size differences, but I don't think tracking is at the Logitech or Steelseries 3360/3366 level either. Maybe if they release some miracle firmware addressing their LOD problems it might improve. I don't think many (any?) pro players use this mouse either? And I think the issues I described are probably why.

2) G Pro Hero wired: I've used not one, but three of these mice. One unit tracked slow with undershoot (DPI variance?) at 800 DPI. One tracked great with flicks going right where you want them to. I've never really used lots of samples of one particular mouse before, so either the Hero 16k sensor has a lot of manufacturing variance, or...all sensors do. Due to the on the fly framerate adjustment, this particular sensor is basically the fastest reacting one you can get. The Hero sensor is the antithesis of swamp cursor.

I would describe a normal sensor as feeling like you're slinging the cursor at the target as one would sling a sock with a roll of quarters in it at something. The Hero sensor kinda gets off the line faster, so there is less of a 'slinging' cursor at target feeling and it's more like a moving a laser beam from one point to another feeling. Most people are more used to traditional sensors which inherently have more of a 'slinging at target', undershoot type of effect, so I could see some people liking this sensor above all others due to it's faster off the line reaction speed, while others might think the cursor feels more floaty because it's constantly adjusting itself.

From a non-biased point of view, I would say there are pros and cons to both sensor types (constant framerate adjustment vs 'phase transitions' from one framerate to another). I seem to recall it feeling easier and less stressful to do tasks like highlighting text with a traditional sensor, while the Hero might feel a little overly twitchy in doing so and requiring you to put forth more effort into controlling the mouse in what is typically a leisurely task (because it's easier to do things like highlight text with undershoot).

For actual video game performance, comparing say a 3366 vs Hero 16k in something like League of Legends, if you're just walking around and someone suddenly appears on your screen and you need to do a quick draw flickshot in the fastest time possible, the Hero is probably going to win. On the other hand, if you're holding down a key with your skillshot pre-readied scanning back and forth with it waiting to let go, I think the traditional 3366 might actually be better here. Microadjustments might feel a little bit less floaty and more predictable in other words on the traditional 3366 sensor, but YMMV.

As for the G102/G Hero wired shape, it sucks compared to something like a Kana shape because a mouse needs a rear end to stabilize it for control. Having an anemic rear end on a mouse is equivalent to driving one of those 'trike' motorcycles with two wheels in the front and one in the back. It's just more out of control than a car with a stable base and four wheels. The shape seemingly wants to force you to use fingertip grip, which I do like fingertip grip, but when making microadjustments, I believe most fingertip grip users subconsciously switch to claw grip to do so because fingertip doesn't cut it for that fine grain activity.

In other words, any mouse that's not palm grip needs to function well in both fingertip and claw grip and easily allow you to transition back and forth between the two. Mice like the Kana shape do this well for both grips, while the G Pro Hero shape is 'okay' for fingertip grip and so so for claw. That 'trike' effect from no rear end is going to make you less accurate in both grips than something like a Kana shape, so the only real reason to use the mouse is the sensor or clicks and not the shape. Speaking of clicks, the clicks on this mouse are 'okay', but a little louder than normal Logitech which is kinda annoying.

3) G Pro Wireless: This is the runner up for the most overhyped mouse ever created next to the Model O. For all I said about the G Pro Hero wired's shape, it actually functions decent in fingertip grip, while the GPW doesn't really feel right in fingertip, claw, or palm grip. It's a mouse that feels like it was designed for nobody and no grip style at all. They just made an ambigious shape with no regard to who would use it. The mouse LOOKS like someone who likes the Kana or MS Wheel Mouse Optical shape would like it, but it doesn't feel like any of those mice at all in your hand.

The mouse just feels like a slightly adjusted G403 or something instead. This is a mouse that seems like they were leaning more towards claw and fingertip grip, so they really need to make it more low profile like an XM1 to cater to those grip styles instead of attempting to make a mouse shape to satisfy everyone that satisifes noone in reality. The one saving grace this mouse does have is the clicks are a little better and quieter than the G Pro Hero wired. For FPS, this mouse has a rear end so FPS players would generally probably play better with it due to having more stability for micro adjustments, but in games like League of Legends, I play better with the G Pro Hero wired instead.

The fact I play worse with this mouse than the G Pro Hero wired in League of Legends makes it feel like an enormous ripoff to me personally (probably because I don't use palm grip and it's not low profile enough for a good claw and fingertip grip?). If the shape was identical to something like a Kana or more low profile like an XM1 it might be a mouse that I would main, but the shape just isn't as good making the $150 price tag look ridiculous. This is a mouse that I thought I would love the shape, but even the G402 - which is a much heavier mouse - seems like a better claw grip shape to me.

4) Endgame XM1 - My first gen XM1 had the worst buttons of any mouse I've ever used. Both made a loud THUNK sound on rebound and were the loudest, most obnoxious buttons I've ever had. JumpingRocketNinja also had similar issues on his, so it's not me being overly picky. My new white one doesn't make these 'thunk' sounds and is much better, but the buttons are still slightly too loud and require a little too much force to press than a standard Logitech or Steelseries you're probably used to.

They put the click actuation at the very way front of the mouse, so if you have long mutant-like fingers and click the very front, they'll feel softer and more like a normal click, but only if you're a mutant. For a normal human using claw grip, you'll be clicking around the middle of the button way off from the actual actuation point, and it will require more force. As for the sensor, the tracking is better than the 3389 in the Steelseries Ten to me. They put some type of "tilt tracking" in the Sensei Ten. I don't think there's an actual tilt sensor but some type of background routine running that probably bogs down their 3389 (my guess). Only explanation I can think of for why the XM1's sensor feels better.

Due to the clicks being a little stiffer than a normal Logitech and the click sounds also being high pitch and kinda annoying, this mouse is kinda so so for spam click intensive games like MOBA, but probably not an issue for FPS. If the clicks don't bother you, it's probably one of the best options in terms of shape, performance, and price. I'm using this mouse right now, but I'll be honest, the clicks are just repulsive to me compared to clicks like the G502, G402, G302, etc. Once you've used a good Logitech click, ones like these just make you want to throw up.

This is the first mouse I've had where I banged my fist on the buttons hoping I can somehow break them in faster so they'll be slightly softer and less of a glass breaking sound for actuation and more of a 'click' sound instead. The whole 'glass breaking' sound might be a 50m Chinese Omron issue, though. The G Pro Hero Wired with 50m Chinese Omrons has kinda loud clicks too, while the GPW mysteriously has better and a bit quieter clicks using the same switches. Might be different shell acoustics on the GPW blocking some of that glass breaking sound on the switches from getting out.

That loud glass breaking sound is almost like torture over time on the XM1. The pitch of the sound just seems like it was hand selected to cause the most annoyance possible. The GPW's clicks sound like a higher frequency than the XM1, but the sound is more muffled and not as loud so much less annoying. When I click the XM1, it sounds like there's nothing blocking the noise coming out and that noise travels hard and loud to the point where clicking it on your desk is just as annoying as holding it up right to your ear and clicking it over and over. The XM1 is a good shape, weight, and decent sensor, but the waterboarding of mouse clicks.

5) Viper Mini - Getting tired of typing now, so just gonna get to the point fast here. Clicks are supposed to be 'improved' but are still junk. Worse than the Model O-, which already has kinda rickity clicks itself. Worse than any Logitech click. The sound is probably better and lower pitched than the XM1 click, but Viper Mini clicks aren't good for spam clicking and worse than Model O and XM1 in that regard. As for the sensor, all Razer sensors feel worse than competitors to me. Probably due to the issue I talked about above where Razer mice identify themselves to Windows as 1 mouse 2 keyboards, while normal mice identify themselves as 1 mouse 1 keyboard.

They seem to put some type of unneeded bloat in the firmwares and that's my theory for why their sensors always suck compared to competitors. This mouse is no exception. It's a bad sensor with Razer's bad 1 mouse 2 keyboard bloat firmware on top of it (probably for Synapse garbage?). I didn't spend a lot of time with the mouse due to the sensor, firmware, and clicks all being blah, but I seem to remember this mouse might have been harder to grip than a Model O- too. Mose mice there's at least one good thing about it, but I don't recall a single good thing about the Viper Mini.

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Last edited by r0ach; 07-03-2020 at 02:07 AM.
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post #2 of 76 (permalink) Old 07-03-2020, 04:48 AM
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Hero sensor (at least on my g305) feels absolutely terrible honestly. Really laggy and inconsistent, not super innacurate (as my xm1 is (I think that's because I have interference issues and stripped away the shielding but idk). Viper mini had potential to be good but razer decided to save 50c and put in some dog**** sensor, probably implemented it terribly as well (feels worse than my g305, which is locked @500hz for some reason (corrupted firmware ig). Xm1 sensor (idr firmware version but I think its 2.0) is really responsive but supper inaccurate, feels like there's 5% deviation from where I'm actually aiming with it at all times, somehow floaty with low input lag. Model O (first batch I preordered) is very accurate and somewhere around the middle as far as responsiveness (worse than am010, xm1) but about as accurate as the forenamed am010. Mm710 is in a similar spot as the Model O, but a little more responsive and a little less accurate. My g100s (even @ 500hz and 1.6k dpi (added smoothing) is the most accurate and responsive mouse I have, and I didn't ghub it like I did my g305.
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post #3 of 76 (permalink) Old 07-03-2020, 06:16 AM
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I have to agree with you on the GPW shape, I'm surprised I don't see many people complaining about it, and it's hard to tell if I'm in the minority, as I'm not one to post on Reddit/forums usually and I'm sure many people aren't too. I don't think that rear hump and rear curve is good human ergonomic design at all, objectively speaking about shape — as a palm/claw gripper (17.5 by 9.5), it digs into the palm and pushes the hand away from the hump, the very part I need support from, forcing some sort of unnatural fingertip in trying to find the stability I need — the GPW curve reminds me of the G403, G903 too, it seems like a Logitech 'trademark', like how Razer loves their front flares. Glad to see that reduced in the Deathadder v2.

It really does seem like it was designed to suit all grips and hands, and in the process, not really being great for any. I remember there being a video/gif somewhere of the development process, and some of the old prototype shapes looked very promising. I wish that at the very least they just focused on one particular group of players for input — like Zowie and their development process with CS players.

The GPW seems to work for some fingertippers, and people with 20cm large, thick hands however haha, I guess with so much meat you get good contact with the mouse anyway — not possible with my skinny fingers.
I do love the front of the GPW, it is very comfortable to grip (shape-wise, coating could be better), but I just have no support at all at the back, due to the hump, and lack of any rear flare at all. I agree, at first touch and glance it seems like the next-gen WMO/AM/Kana update, but when you use it for a while it's apparent it's far from that in the shape department. (Edit 1: Correction; there is some rear flare on the GPW, but it's hard to consider with that awful hump there.)

I hope VAXEE can deliver next year with their expertise and learnings over the past decade, I'd like to finally see some new centred-hump ambidextrous mice that fill up the palm somewhat (as opposed to the low-profile FK and it's clones). I'm glad they finally addressed the length-width ratio in the design of the S2/1, although personally I wish they still had three sizes; the S2 was slightly too small/not wide enough for me and the S1 too large. Oh, and of course, would be nice to try the Astrum once it escapes the COVID factory queue.

Last edited by mxnp; 07-03-2020 at 06:31 AM.
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post #4 of 76 (permalink) Old 07-03-2020, 06:44 AM
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post #5 of 76 (permalink) Old 07-03-2020, 08:12 AM
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Odd you use numbers to list but then say in no particular order, I'd recommend changing to bullet points or removing numbers all together relying on bolded style to identify each particular review.

It would probably be easier to consume the review if you made sections for each specific attribute you are quantifying e.g. mouse switches, shape, lift off distance

How do you quantify which mouse is better outside of physical properties when your computer experience is fluctuating?

Last edited by Timecard; 07-03-2020 at 08:16 AM.
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post #6 of 76 (permalink) Old 07-03-2020, 08:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote: Originally Posted by HappyAlive View Post
Hero sensor (at least on my g305) feels absolutely terrible honestly. Really laggy and inconsistent
I haven't used the G305, but it's the 12k DPI Hero and not the 16k DPI one. Most people seem to say the 16k Hero is an improvement and is more responsive, but I haven't used the 12k myself to compare. The last thing on earth the Hero 16k in the G Pro Hero wired is is "laggy". It's one of the most responsive, least laggy sensors there is. The only thing comparable is the AM010 and MLT04. Whether you like the sensor's other attributes might be hit or miss, but it definitely can't be faulted for lag.

Quote: Originally Posted by HappyAlive View Post
Xm1 sensor (idr firmware version but I think its 2.0) is really responsive but supper inaccurate, feels like there's 5% deviation from where I'm actually aiming with it at all times, somehow floaty with low input lag.
I believe what you're experiencing is the fact that I would say the 3389 is inferior to Logitech's 3366 and Steelseries' 3360 in the Sensei 310/Rival 310 in general. I've never used a single 3389 that I've liked more than Logitech 3366 or Steelseries 3360. The Hero 16k is also superior to the 3389. That's not an across the board endorsement of the 3360 in general, though. Steelseries was the only company I've seen release a good 3360 firmware while all the off-brand ones were either terrible or just not as good with weird LOD issues (Model O).

As for other XM1 sensor characteristics, I bought one of the original models with older firmware and on that one, the mouse was very twitchy but you could easily notice a phase transition in sensor framerate depending how fast you moved the mouse that I did not notice on regular Logitech sensors. The Logitechs just felt far more linear in swipes. Now I have a newer, white XM1 with the new paracord-style cord and newer firmware and movement is more linear but feels a bit less twitchy to me. The 3389 also feels like it places a tighter bound on data it reads and just clips more outlier data than a 3366/3360/Hero 16k does. The sensor feels almost the same as a 3310.

Overall I prefer the Logitech 3366, Steelseries 3360, and Hero 16k over any 3389 in general, but if you want anything close to a Kana-like shape, you're gonna be forced to use the XM1 and 3389 for now. Hell, this could be the end of sensors as we know it because I could easily imagine companies being unable to improve their sensors in a meaningful manner and resorting back to DPI wars and making them ultra-laggy again in the process like the Avago 9800 swamp laser and 4k DPI firmware A3090 slug mouse.

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Last edited by r0ach; 07-03-2020 at 08:13 PM.
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post #7 of 76 (permalink) Old 07-03-2020, 08:14 PM
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you're the problem if you don't agree with the summary.

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post #8 of 76 (permalink) Old 07-03-2020, 08:44 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by r0ach View Post
As for other XM1 sensor characteristics, I bought one of the original models with older firmware and on that one, the mouse was very twitchy but you could easily notice a phase transition in sensor framerate depending how fast you moved the mouse that I did not notice on regular Logitech sensors.
My GPW does the same. The responsiveness of it depends on velocity and distance of movement in the past 10-20 seconds. Its an inconsistent mess but its really not a surprise considering the battery lasts 3-5x as long as 3366 models and they advertise POWER EFFICIENCY



As a general rule of thumb, stay the **** away from anything that advertises power efficiency and wireless mice that need charging less than every day (aka dont buy wireless at all). Its baffling how these GAMING MICE companies dont give us the option to disable all these stupid power-saving features.
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post #9 of 76 (permalink) Old 07-03-2020, 08:50 PM
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hey now, there were some solid AA/AAA sporting wireless mice back in the day!

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post #10 of 76 (permalink) Old 07-03-2020, 08:58 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by mxnp View Post
I have to agree with you on the GPW shape, I'm surprised I don't see many people complaining about it, and it's hard to tell if I'm in the minority, as I'm not one to post on Reddit/forums usually and I'm sure many people aren't too. I don't think that rear hump and rear curve is good human ergonomic design at all, objectively speaking about shape — as a palm/claw gripper (17.5 by 9.5), it digs into the palm and pushes the hand away from the hump, the very part I need support from, forcing some sort of unnatural fingertip in trying to find the stability I need — the GPW curve reminds me of the G403, G903 too, it seems like a Logitech 'trademark', like how Razer loves their front flares. Glad to see that reduced in the Deathadder v2.

It really does seem like it was designed to suit all grips and hands, and in the process, not really being great for any. I remember there being a video/gif somewhere of the development process, and some of the old prototype shapes looked very promising. I wish that at the very least they just focused on one particular group of players for input — like Zowie and their development process with CS players.

The GPW seems to work for some fingertippers, and people with 20cm large, thick hands however haha, I guess with so much meat you get good contact with the mouse anyway — not possible with my skinny fingers.
I do love the front of the GPW, it is very comfortable to grip (shape-wise, coating could be better), but I just have no support at all at the back, due to the hump, and lack of any rear flare at all. I agree, at first touch and glance it seems like the next-gen WMO/AM/Kana update, but when you use it for a while it's apparent it's far from that in the shape department. (Edit 1: Correction; there is some rear flare on the GPW, but it's hard to consider with that awful hump there.)

I hope VAXEE can deliver next year with their expertise and learnings over the past decade, I'd like to finally see some new centred-hump ambidextrous mice that fill up the palm somewhat (as opposed to the low-profile FK and it's clones). I'm glad they finally addressed the length-width ratio in the design of the S2/1, although personally I wish they still had three sizes; the S2 was slightly too small/not wide enough for me and the S1 too large. Oh, and of course, would be nice to try the Astrum once it escapes the COVID factory queue.

Ambidextrous mice will never be ergonomic.

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