[HeXus]Legendary CPU architect Jim Keller leaves AMD - Page 26 - Overclock.net - An Overclocking Community

Forum Jump: 

[HeXus]Legendary CPU architect Jim Keller leaves AMD

Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #251 of 284 (permalink) Old 09-24-2015, 08:29 AM
New to Overclock.net
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 690
Rep: 35 (Unique: 28)
Looking at the CPU landscape right now, its almost like Intel is allowing AMD to catch-up with how slow and incremental their performance increases have been since SB. Also, Intel's process-shrinks have slowed down as well.

Zen should have a chance of turning out well because if it doesn't it won't be able to capitalize on the above which would be super disappointing.

Gaming PC
(16 items)
Office PC
(15 items)
CPU
Intel Core i7 8700K
Motherboard
ASUS ROG STRIX Z370-F
GPU
Gigabyte Geforce RTX 2080 Gaming OC 8G
RAM
G.Skill RipjawsV 16GB (8GB x 2) DDR4-3200 CL16
Hard Drive
Samsung 970 EVO 500GB
Power Supply
Seasonic Prime Titanum 750W
Cooling
Noctua NH-D15
Case
Fractal Design Define R5 Blackout Edition
Operating System
Microsoft Windows 10 Pro
Monitor
Acer Predator X34P
Keyboard
Topre Realforce 104UB
Mouse
Logitech G903
Mousepad
Logitech PowerPlay
Audio
Sound Blaster Z PCIe
Audio
Sennheiser HD 650
Audio
Bose Companion 3 Series II
CPU
Intel Core i5-7360U
Motherboard
Intel Kaby Lake-U iHDCP 2.2 Premium PCH
GPU
Intel Iris Plus 640
RAM
8GB LPDDR3-2133
Hard Drive
Apple 256GB NVMe PCIE SSD
Operating System
MacOS Mojave
Monitor
13.3-inch IPS 2560x1600
Keyboard
Apple Magic Keyboard with Numeric Keypad Space Grey
Mouse
Logitech G900 Chaos Spectrum
Mousepad
Razer Goliathus Mobile Stealth Edition
CPU
Intel Pentium G4560
Motherboard
ASRock B250M Pro4
GPU
Intel HD Graphics 610
RAM
G.Skill Aegis 8GB (4GBx2) DDR4 2400MHz
Hard Drive
Samsung 970 EVO 500GB
Power Supply
Seasonic S12II 620W
Cooling
Corsair SP120 quiet edition
Cooling
Intel stock CPU cooler
Cooling
Noctua NF P14s redux-1200
Case
Corsair Obsidian 550D
Operating System
Windows 10 Pro
Monitor
Dell U2311H
Keyboard
Logitech G613
Mouse
Logitech G403
Mousepad
Fellowes Microban Gray
▲ hide details ▲
jologskyblues is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #252 of 284 (permalink) Old 09-24-2015, 08:34 AM
Irrigator of Souls
 
infranoia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: North Bend, Washington, USA, Earth, Sol, Laniakea Supercluster
Posts: 1,167
Rep: 106 (Unique: 61)
Every architecture that Jim Keller has ever designed has been ahead of Intel. First Alpha, then K8, then A4/A5. Now, Intel has had lots of time and money and have an incredibly solid and tight architecture. Lightning will probably not strike a fourth time.

But you can understand the hype in the context of his career. He's always been Intel's foil.

Antec P280 : MSI MPOWER Z87 : Haswell 4770K @ 4.7 : Corsair H100 : EVGA 1080Ti SC2 Hybrid : Sony XBR65X850BCPU History (Click to show)
MOS 6502 1MHz, MOS 6510 1.023MHz, MC68000 7.16MHz, MC68030 25MHz, MC68040 40MHz, MC68060 50MHz, Pentium 60, NexGen Nx586 Pf110, Pentium Pro 200 Quad, AMD K6-2 350MHz, AMD K6-III 450MHz, Athlon Slot-A 1000, Athlon T-Bird 1400, Athlon XP Palomino 2100+ (1733MHz), Athlon XP Barton 2800+ (2083MHz), Core2Duo e8500 [email protected], i7 4770K [email protected]
"Greenland is purported to be a large GPU (it is a very large island)." -Hexus.net
infranoia is offline  
post #253 of 284 (permalink) Old 09-24-2015, 08:52 AM
New to Overclock.net
 
Skrillex's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Leeds
Posts: 986
Rep: 36 (Unique: 35)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultracarpet View Post

Uhh I think you are missing something.

Jim worked on k7 & was the lead for k8. He left before k8 hit shelves and worked for a few different companies. One notable company was Apple in which I think he led in designing the a4, and a5, which are beasts. Then he left back to AMD to start designing Zen presumably from scratch. He has a very good track record, of which bulldozer is not included lol.

You'll have to forgive me, I don't keep track of CPU architects career paths. If he was involved with developing A4 & A5 at Apple, then certainly I'd agree that was a brilliant piece of work.

Skrillex is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #254 of 284 (permalink) Old 09-24-2015, 09:23 AM
New to Overclock.net
 
Ultracarpet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 3,641
Rep: 216 (Unique: 139)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skrillex View Post

You'll have to forgive me, I don't keep track of CPU architects career paths. If he was involved with developing A4 & A5 at Apple, then certainly I'd agree that was a brilliant piece of work.

Lol np, it is kind of funny sounding when you put it that way. But yea, he's done some amazing work.

Ultracarpet is offline  
post #255 of 284 (permalink) Old 09-24-2015, 01:52 PM
Linux Lobbyist
 
PiOfPie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 798
Rep: 73 (Unique: 59)
Quote:
Originally Posted by infranoia View Post

Every architecture that Jim Keller has ever designed has been ahead of Intel. First Alpha, then K8, then A4/A5. Now, Intel has had lots of time and money and have an incredibly solid and tight architecture. Lightning will probably not strike a fourth time.

But you can understand the hype in the context of his career. He's always been Intel's foil.

Plus Intel has Alpha's IP, so they'll have a reasonably good idea of what parts of the 21264 he views as a success and will be able to counter accordingly. Bulldozer heavily curbed from the 21264, so the the parts of Zen adopted from the construction cores will be pretty easy for Intel to infer, as well.

The only "blueprints" that Intel don't have are: a) the Cat Cores and b) any "secret weapons" that Keller's thought of while working on the Ax chips and since then.

My Biases:
-(Center to center-right) meritocratic libertarianism isn't a perfect system of government, but it's as good as we're going to do.
-Any entities--public or private--powerful enough to give people everything they want are also powerful enough to enslave them.
-Pride and shame should be based on one's accomplishments (or lack thereof) rather than uncontrollable identity characteristics.
-Intel and Nvidia are companies staffed by great engineers; they are usually managed by anticompetitive, immoral reptilians.
-AMD is a company staffed by great engineers; they are usually managed by five-year-olds with ADHD.
PiOfPie is offline  
post #256 of 284 (permalink) Old 09-24-2015, 02:13 PM
You broke it!
 
PostalTwinkie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: U.S.A
Posts: 14,226
Rep: 1091 (Unique: 561)
Quote:
Originally Posted by PiOfPie View Post

Plus Intel has Alpha's IP, so they'll have a reasonably good idea of what parts of the 21264 he views as a success and will be able to counter accordingly. Bulldozer heavily curbed from the 21264, so the the parts of Zen adopted from the construction cores will be pretty easy for Intel to infer, as well.

The only "blueprints" that Intel don't have are: a) the Cat Cores and b) any "secret weapons" that Keller's thought of while working on the Ax chips and since then.

Your statement assumes he used anything of AMD's current hardware, or philosophy.

We now have a quote (the most recent) that he was given freedom to build from scratch, starting over entirely. If that is a case no one outside of the team developing it have any idea what it will be. At least not beyond known limitations in engineering. He isn't going to reinvent the wheel, but that doesn't mean Intel or anyone can have an idea worth voicing.

The closest guess anyone, right now, could make is that it will fall between current performance from AMD and faster than what Intel has. Why? If it was truly a ground-up, truly new-new architecture, the sky is the limit. You are talking about the possible scenario where a very desperate company said "Here is a mountain of cash, save us.". That would have created a situation of one of the best Architects, with a massive budget, and all his years of knowledge to current, building a brand new architecture.

Why is it hard to believe that one of the best, with access to the best technologies, and (hopefully) the budget to back it, with freedom, couldn't create the best processor? If Zen truly is a ground up build, that is a departure from what AMD has been doing.
PostalTwinkie is offline  
post #257 of 284 (permalink) Old 09-24-2015, 02:19 PM
pass the lortabs
 
p4inkill3r's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Rusk, TX
Posts: 4,989
Rep: 513 (Unique: 311)
Quote:
Originally Posted by PostalTwinkie View Post

You are talking about the possible scenario where a very desperate company said "Here is a mountain of cash, save us.". That would have created a situation of one of the best Architects, with a massive budget, and all his years of knowledge to current, building a brand new architecture.
For a Hail Mary, its a great one.

p4inkill3r is offline  
post #258 of 284 (permalink) Old 09-24-2015, 02:22 PM
New to Overclock.net
 
2010rig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: 2036
Posts: 8,882
Rep: 463 (Unique: 307)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skrillex View Post

I'm not trying to diss you or anything but how can you be the Chief CPU architect at AMD and not have a say in designing the companies next big product?
.
He was at AMD from 1998-1999, where he took care of K7 & K8...

At P.A. Semi from 2004 - 2008 when it was acquired by Apple, he went with Apple and was there till 2012, then went back to AMD.

So as you can see, he wasn't at AMD when Bulldozer was designed



2010rig is offline  
post #259 of 284 (permalink) Old 09-24-2015, 03:43 PM
Linux Lobbyist
 
PiOfPie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 798
Rep: 73 (Unique: 59)
Quote:
Originally Posted by PostalTwinkie View Post

Your statement assumes he used anything of AMD's current hardware, or philosophy.

We now have a quote (the most recent) that he was given freedom to build from scratch, starting over entirely. If that is a case no one outside of the team developing it have any idea what it will be. At least not beyond known limitations in engineering. He isn't going to reinvent the wheel, but that doesn't mean Intel or anyone can have an idea worth voicing.

He did say that a large component of Zen's design was figuring out what "worked" from both the Cat and Construction Cores and applying both. Architectures may be designed "from scratch," but "from scratch" is a vague term and could mean a variety of things. Bulldozer was billed as a "from scratch" design as well and fell on its face (albeit GloFo was half the problem). And even if a design is ground-up, people are likely to fall back on what they know works, especially people who have been in the industry a long time like Jim.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PostalTwinkie View Post

The closest guess anyone, right now, could make is that it will fall between current performance from AMD and faster than what Intel has. Why? If it was truly a ground-up, truly new-new architecture, the sky is the limit. You are talking about the possible scenario where a very desperate company said "Here is a mountain of cash, save us.". That would have created a situation of one of the best Architects, with a massive budget, and all his years of knowledge to current, building a brand new architecture.

Why is it hard to believe that one of the best, with access to the best technologies, and (hopefully) the budget to back it, with freedom, couldn't create the best processor? If Zen truly is a ground up build, that is a departure from what AMD has been doing.

Believe me, I want to believe that things are looking up for AMD; I have a soft spot for them. They likely threw a ton of money at him and the Zen team to get things working to the best of their ability. However, there are two big factors in play here even with Jim:
1) AMD's R&D budget is a fraction of Intel or (I believe?) NV's.
2) Even if the Zen team was firing on all cylinders and the core design is amazing, they may (read:likely will) still get screwed over by fabs (see: Bulldozer's original design, Steamroller A, etc.). Can Keller design a core that has 25%+ more IPC than Haswell to account for the clock penalty that the smaller node is likely to incur? I think he's good, but I don't think he's that good.

My Biases:
-(Center to center-right) meritocratic libertarianism isn't a perfect system of government, but it's as good as we're going to do.
-Any entities--public or private--powerful enough to give people everything they want are also powerful enough to enslave them.
-Pride and shame should be based on one's accomplishments (or lack thereof) rather than uncontrollable identity characteristics.
-Intel and Nvidia are companies staffed by great engineers; they are usually managed by anticompetitive, immoral reptilians.
-AMD is a company staffed by great engineers; they are usually managed by five-year-olds with ADHD.
PiOfPie is offline  
post #260 of 284 (permalink) Old 09-24-2015, 07:33 PM
MegaTechPC
 
Majin SSJ Eric's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Saint Simons Island, GA
Posts: 19,208
Rep: 1092 (Unique: 517)
Like I said, its a bit unfair to expect AMD to suddenly catch up to or surpass Intel's current offerings when they have been generations behind since the C2D days. That said, if anybody could a come up with a clean sheet design on a shoe-string budget that could bridge the gap between AMD and Intel it would be Keller. I am optimistic about this chip and would not be surprised if Zen turns out to be a monster...


3DMark11 - P25138
3DMark Firestrike - P20998

Intel Core i7 4930K @ 4.7GHz | Asus Rampage IV Extreme | 2 x EVGA GTX Titan SC (1254MHz) | 16GB Patriot Viper Extreme DDR3 2133MHz (4 x 4GB) | Corsair AX1200 | Silverstone Temjin TJ11 | Corsair Force 3 240GB (System) | 2 x Intel 320 160GB SSD (Dedicated Gaming Drives) | Hitachi Deskstar 1TB (Data) | MS Windows 10 Pro | EK Supreme HF/FC-Titan/Rampage IV Extreme blocks | Hardware Labs GTX 560/240 rads | Alphacool VPP-655 D5 pump | Bitspower mod kit/pump top/fittings/120mm res


Majin SSJ Eric is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Overclock.net - An Overclocking Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off