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[Kitguru] Intel’s 10nm launch may be impacted by chipset issues

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post #21 of 64 (permalink) Old 01-23-2019, 08:15 AM
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PCIe 4 is higher bandwidth and with that come stricter design rules for everything. While you may think a copper interconnect is just a copper interconnect, it is not, it has resistance, capacity, inductance, it affects things around it and other connects around it, designing high frequency and high bandwidth interconnects is not as simple, route it where ever you want on a mobo LOL. Why does Intel struggle with chipset design... don't know, they struggle with everything nowadays.
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post #22 of 64 (permalink) Old 01-23-2019, 09:34 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by JackCY View Post
PCIe 4 is higher bandwidth and with that come stricter design rules for everything. While you may think a copper interconnect is just a copper interconnect, it is not, it has resistance, capacity, inductance, it affects things around it and other connects around it, designing high frequency and high bandwidth interconnects is not as simple, route it where ever you want on a mobo LOL. Why does Intel struggle with chipset design... don't know, they struggle with everything nowadays.
Whilst resistance is a factor most recent boards should be able to pass validation. The transceivers are on the CPU and GPU...
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post #23 of 64 (permalink) Old 01-23-2019, 10:15 AM
 
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Quote: Originally Posted by JackCY View Post
PCIe 4 is higher bandwidth and with that come stricter design rules for everything. While you may think a copper interconnect is just a copper interconnect, it is not, it has resistance, capacity, inductance, it affects things around it and other connects around it, designing high frequency and high bandwidth interconnects is not as simple, route it where ever you want on a mobo LOL. Why does Intel struggle with chipset design... don't know, they struggle with everything nowadays.
Thank you for bringing some technical savvy to this conversation.

I think Intel is struggling with bandwidth. There is so much demand in their high end market that they have less development resources and production capacity for desktop. They just invested 15 billion in Q3 2018 to increase production capacity. They probably should have done this sooner but I'm guessing the demand increase was not anticipated or their issues with leadership caused a delay in reaction. Hopefully they will find someone to take the helm that can get them back on track and give some focus back to desktop.

For everyone out there predicting Intel's demise at the hand of AMD, I don't think I'll live to see that day. Here is the simplified CFSR for Q3 from Intel.

https://www.intc.com/investor-relati...s/default.aspx

Here is a great article from Bloomberg that supports the current management crisis at Intel.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-ousted-rivals

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Last edited by pgdeaner; 01-23-2019 at 10:19 AM. Reason: Added reference.
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post #24 of 64 (permalink) Old 01-23-2019, 10:27 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Shadowarez View Post
Of course it will they have to find a way to reduce the pcie lanes you'll get then make a cover story to why you will only get 8x or 4x pcie 4.0 lanes and crippled 3.0

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.... what?



Quote: Originally Posted by Hwgeek View Post
So Intel is struggling to implement PCI-E Gen4 while AMD users can just enable it on older M-board with Bios Update? LMAO :-).
You'll still need Zen 2.


Quote: Originally Posted by m4fox90 View Post
We're just about at the point where they're "inteLOL," aren't we?
Quote: Originally Posted by Hwgeek View Post
If it's not "Greed"- then the other reason should be "Poor socket design" since Intel knew all the processor line up since 6700K and they could make Z170/Z270 compatible, so if somehow Z270 could not support i3 8100 cpu with same pin count- it's very poor planing by Intel engineers.

Pick the reason you like :-).

Haha yes, Intel BAD. AMD GOOD.




Quote: Originally Posted by pgdeaner View Post
Thank you for bringing some technical savvy to this conversation.

I think Intel is struggling with bandwidth. There is so much demand in their high end market that they have less development resources and production capacity for desktop. They just invested 15 billion in Q3 2018 to increase production capacity. They probably should have done this sooner but I'm guessing the demand increase was not anticipated or their issues with leadership caused a delay in reaction. Hopefully they will find someone to take the helm that can get them back on track and give some focus back to desktop.

For everyone out there predicting Intel's demise at the hand of AMD, I don't think I'll live to see that day. Here is the simplified CFSR for Q3 from Intel.

https://www.intc.com/investor-relati...s/default.aspx
Thanks for some sanity.




While I know some people love jumping to conclusions from reading a title someone else has written on a site; one thing should be clear - there really are no easy answers and Intel isn't struggling because <haha SHINTELL bad> or <they got so fat and happy and now they're spooked AMD has something good>. They're struggling because it's bloody hard to implement. And I'd have it a guess it's probably due to trying to create a monolithic design that is scalable across all their requirements that is better in every metric to their CL counter-parts.

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post #25 of 64 (permalink) Old 01-23-2019, 10:34 AM
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Just know. Intel will eff this up and end up making consumers pay top dollar for datacentre scraps they hodgepodge together. Like they have been past 3-5 generation of CPUs. Look at Optane its a joke and a bad one.

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post #26 of 64 (permalink) Old 01-23-2019, 10:42 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Shadowarez View Post
Just know. Intel will eff this up and end up making consumers pay top dollar for datacentre scraps they hodgepodge together.
What makes you say that beyond "INTEL BAD!"?


Quote: Originally Posted by Shadowarez View Post
Like they have been past 3-5 generation of CPUs. Look at Optane its a joke and a bad one.

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But Optane is great for its use-case?

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post #27 of 64 (permalink) Old 01-23-2019, 10:46 AM
 
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Quote: Originally Posted by elina08 View Post
"We spoke with AMD representatives, who confirmed that 300- and 400-series AM4 motherboards can support PCIe 4.0. AMD will not lock the out feature, instead it will be up to motherboard vendors to validate and qualify the faster standard on its motherboards on a case-by-case basis. Motherboard vendors that do support the feature will enable it through BIOS updates, but those updates will come at the discretion of the vendor. As mentioned below, support could be limited to slots based upon board, switch, and mux layouts."
If you translate that from marketing speak it says "Neither the CPU nor the chipset will limit PCI 4.0 compatibility but rather the implementation of the individual motherboard vendors."

How much effort do you think Asus or others will put in to updating existing boards for PCI 4.0? If I was a betting man I'd say very little but it will be interesting to see.

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post #28 of 64 (permalink) Old 01-23-2019, 10:48 AM
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It's not 10000x faster then nand or dense or cost effective

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post #29 of 64 (permalink) Old 01-23-2019, 10:50 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Shadowarez View Post
It's not 10000x faster then nand or dense or cost effective

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It's not for consumers neither

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post #30 of 64 (permalink) Old 01-23-2019, 11:01 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Defoler View Post
That doesn't necessarily mean you can magically enable PCIE 4.0 on a PCIE 3.0 motherboard.
It means that the ryzen will be backward compatible, aka, you can put a ryzen that is PCIE 4.0, on a PCIE 3.0 motherboard, and it will work.
It doesn't mean the motherboard will turn into a PCIE 4.0 one.
Nah, they actually can through a firmware update. PCIe 4.0 runs at twice the clockrate of PCIe 3.0, but I do not believe there are many other changes in the signal. Over a short enough distance, there's a chance that a PCIe 4.0 signal can be sent through a motherboard designed for PCIe 3.0 if its tolerances are tight enough. Existing 300- and 400-series motherboards from AMD should be able to upgrade the primary PCIe x16 slot provided it is within a certain distance of the CPU socket. This will need to be validated by the vendor, but I'm betting that a lot of existing motherboards will handle it fine.

It could also cause BSODs if a vendor enables it when it doesn't work with the motherboard.

It's not very different from using a stockpile of CAT5 cable to run a 10 gigabit line. It'll have to be a short run, it's not technically within spec, but it'll work.


Quote: Originally Posted by Shadowarez View Post
Amd should partner with micron make there own Optane that isn't compatible with Intel boards now. Thatd be nice.

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Optane works just fine on AMD boards. Optane is nothing more than a brand of NVMe SSDs that use a kind of memory that isn't flash. There's nothing special about them per se.

But Intel screwed up their marketing big time because they only focused on its use as a cache drive, which is a firmware feature like Intel RST or AMD StoreMI that is motherboard-dependent.


Quote: Originally Posted by Shadowarez View Post
It's not 10000x faster then nand or dense or cost effective

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3D Xpoint memory is orders of magnitude faster than flash memory. Flash SSDs over the course of a few decades have developed techniques to mask some of flash's downsides, particularly the long time it takes to erase. Good garbage collection and some amount of overprovisioning are mandatory for a flash SSD, and a DRAM cache doesn't hurt either.

Low latency and low queue depths are more important than sequential throughput in many workloads (why else did we move off of RAID 0 HDDs?), and Optane drives manage that amazingly well.

Quote: Originally Posted by TheBadBull View Post
someone sig this



Last edited by CynicalUnicorn; 01-23-2019 at 11:04 AM.
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