[PCGamesN]Patents show AMD’s post-Navi GPU could use an Nvidia-like architecture - Page 2 - Overclock.net - An Overclocking Community

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[PCGamesN]Patents show AMD’s post-Navi GPU could use an Nvidia-like architecture

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post #11 of 28 (permalink) Old 02-09-2019, 11:04 AM
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A new architecture would be great to see. GCN was great in 2012 but really ran out of steam by like 2015. Hopefully a chiplet design will be coming for the GPUs. Should not be difficult considering GPUs are already massively parallel. This would increase yield (especially vs. the massive die Titan RTX / 2080 Ti) and allow for chip standardization across the lineup similar to Ryzen. Better economies of scale. Chiplets would also help spread out the heat from the small 7nm dies across a greater area.

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post #12 of 28 (permalink) Old 02-09-2019, 11:19 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Hydroplane View Post
A new architecture would be great to see. GCN was great in 2012 but really ran out of steam by like 2015. Hopefully a chiplet design will be coming for the GPUs. Should not be difficult considering GPUs are already massively parallel. This would increase yield (especially vs. the massive die Titan RTX / 2080 Ti) and allow for chip standardization across the lineup similar to Ryzen. Better economies of scale. Chiplets would also help spread out the heat from the small 7nm dies across a greater area.

Yeah, it feels like they've been putting supercharged logs in the furnace to make it go faster ever since, like in BTTF 3.

As to building GPUs with chiplets, it's probably not possible because of the tight latency tolerances involved to make them work as a single unit, seen as such by software and the OS. If it was possible we would have had them a long time ago. Maybe with a greatly improved Infinity Fabric, maybe with some PCIe 5.0 in the mix, who knows, but it's anything but easy and in order to take off it needs to be good enough to be treated as a single GPU, otherwise if devs have to code specifically with the latency in mind (meaning: in practice treating them as more than one GPU), it won't work because it's too much work, just like CrossFire and SLI were all but dropped and DX 12 mGPU never took off.


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post #13 of 28 (permalink) Old 02-09-2019, 11:20 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Hydroplane View Post
A new architecture would be great to see. GCN was great in 2012 but really ran out of steam by like 2015. Hopefully a chiplet design will be coming for the GPUs. Should not be difficult considering GPUs are already massively parallel. This would increase yield (especially vs. the massive die Titan RTX / 2080 Ti) and allow for chip standardization across the lineup similar to Ryzen. Better economies of scale. Chiplets would also help spread out the heat from the small 7nm dies across a greater area.
How is multi chiplet different from mgpu? AMD had abandoned mgpu with VII. Nvlink is fast enough to pool vram, yet still is same sli. I also thought it would be easy, but no one has succeeded yet. Some games are good at non sli/cfx mgpu but they are made that way. If we ever see multiple gpu chiplets being used in a console then maybe games will cooperate. Multi chiplet is just lower latency cfx until they find a different way of controlling the gpus.

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post #14 of 28 (permalink) Old 02-09-2019, 11:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote: Originally Posted by rluker5 View Post
How is multi chiplet different from mgpu? AMD had abandoned mgpu with VII. Nvlink is fast enough to pool vram, yet still is same sli. I also thought it would be easy, but no one has succeeded yet. Some games are good at non sli/cfx mgpu but they are made that way. If we ever see multiple gpu chiplets being used in a console then maybe games will cooperate. Multi chiplet is just lower latency cfx until they find a different way of controlling the gpus.
nVidia released a publication in 2017 regarding their MCM-GPU they are working on. It was 26.8% faster than a system with a similar mGPU setup.

https://research.nvidia.com/publicat...ip-Module-GPUs
https://research.nvidia.com/sites/de...017_MCMGPU.pdf

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post #15 of 28 (permalink) Old 02-09-2019, 01:42 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by WannaBeOCer View Post
nVidia released a publication in 2017 regarding their MCM-GPU they are working on. It was 26.8% faster than a system with a similar mGPU setup.

https://research.nvidia.com/publicat...ip-Module-GPUs
https://research.nvidia.com/sites/de...017_MCMGPU.pdf
That's not intended for gaming. It's for speeding gpu based compute acceleration that already works fine over multiple gpus, it just has slow and complicated interconnects to improve.
It should work like Epyc with cinebench and gaming.

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post #16 of 28 (permalink) Old 02-09-2019, 01:47 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by rluker5 View Post
That's not intended for gaming. It's for speeding gpu based compute acceleration that already works fine over multiple gpus, it just has slow and complicated interconnects to improve.
It should work like Epyc with cinebench and gaming.
If that was ready AMD would have been all over it.

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post #17 of 28 (permalink) Old 02-09-2019, 02:00 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by ZealotKi11er View Post
If that was ready AMD would have been all over it.
They sure would have. Games probably just don't have all of their different workloads divisible into some convenient, common, unchanging integer that you could match with a corresponding number of chiplets.
Cfx and sli divide the total by frames and that seems like the easiest way.
Edit: Or you could piece out the different parts, wait for them all to be done and put them back together like a subway sub, but that would again depend on the game to be set up that way and it sounds like delays are likely.

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Quote: Originally Posted by rluker5 View Post
They sure would have. Games probably just don't have all of their different workloads divisible into some convenient, common, unchanging integer that you could match with a corresponding number of chiplets.
Cfx and sli divide the total by frames and that seems like the easiest way.
Edit: Or you could piece out the different parts, wait for them all to be done and put them back together like a subway sub, but that would again depend on the game to be set up that way and it sounds like delays are likely.
I am sure AMD will probably implement it on some MI card for datacenters.

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post #19 of 28 (permalink) Old 02-10-2019, 01:50 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by rluker5 View Post
How is multi chiplet different from mgpu?
Similar to how CPU chiplets are different from dual socket boards I'd expect but it's not an excellent comparison because CPUs are very different from GPUs.

mGPU is two complete dies with their own resources, both run almost exactly the same thing but 2 phase, one is ideally perfectly out of sync with the other (for gaming).
Chiplets are two pieces of silicon linked together to form one effective die that shares resources. Similar to a dual core CPU, the instructions on one die (or core) will differ from the other. The cache will also have different things stored in them but they will feed from the same pool of ram.
mGPU actually works really well when used for compute as you can split the problem up among the cards. For gaming that's not happening, both are running the same instructions almost parallel with the other with the goal being to get the same problem solved twice as fast, one is running the game at 60fps and so is the other. One shows you a single frame and as soon as it's done the other shows you it's frame.
The ultimate goal in my mind of mGPU (gaming) would be to stop running the same thing and learn to work together, both working on their own piece of the problem and compiling it into the finished frames. Applications had to be written to take advantage of multiple cores and I think that in the same way games would have to be written to take advantage of this future mGPU.

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post #20 of 28 (permalink) Old 02-10-2019, 06:53 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by white owl View Post
Similar to how CPU chiplets are different from dual socket boards I'd expect but it's not an excellent comparison because CPUs are very different from GPUs.

mGPU is two complete dies with their own resources, both run almost exactly the same thing but 2 phase, one is ideally perfectly out of sync with the other (for gaming).
Chiplets are two pieces of silicon linked together to form one effective die that shares resources. Similar to a dual core CPU, the instructions on one die (or core) will differ from the other. The cache will also have different things stored in them but they will feed from the same pool of ram.
mGPU actually works really well when used for compute as you can split the problem up among the cards. For gaming that's not happening, both are running the same instructions almost parallel with the other with the goal being to get the same problem solved twice as fast, one is running the game at 60fps and so is the other. One shows you a single frame and as soon as it's done the other shows you it's frame.
The ultimate goal in my mind of mGPU (gaming) would be to stop running the same thing and learn to work together, both working on their own piece of the problem and compiling it into the finished frames. Applications had to be written to take advantage of multiple cores and I think that in the same way games would have to be written to take advantage of this future mGPU.
I agree.
The use of the word cores in reference to a gpu is misleading when you compare it to a cpu. Cores in a gpu are more like instructions per cycle in a cpu. If the game is made in a way that it's frames can't be split up and run well then it can't be used in a "dual core cpu" fashion. It then needs a powerful single threaded gpu with more instructions per cycle.
Just like some poorly made games are single threaded cpu, but the good ones are multi threaded, many newer games are intentionally made with postprocessing stuff like TAA that only works in a single threaded gpu scenario.
Running Skyrim with Threadripper won't make it a multithreaded game any more than running AC Odyssey with sli 1080tis will make it mgputhreaded . And changing the physical arrangement of the gpu parts won't change that. Any "smart" chiplet would more or less act like an independent gpu. You could make the chiplet responsible for less, but what if a game doesn't work with that segmentation?
Unless you are thinking of just having "dumb" cores sitting out there on separate dies, completely controlled by a main scheduler. But the latency that would add is big. I imagine that a 2ghz gpu needs instructions pretty frequently. A much lesser latency change was made with Kepler to Maxwell where the L2 cache was used more end vram less and the per core/ per clock performance went up by 40%. A similar scale of latency change is when the gpu runs out of vram and has to use system ram.

Like you said, the games have to be made compatible to the chiplet method, just like the mgpu method or the multicore cpu method, not the other way around.

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