[Tom's] Intel Confirms Apple Macs Will Switch to Arm CPUs by 2020, Says Report - Page 8 - Overclock.net - An Overclocking Community

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[Tom's] Intel Confirms Apple Macs Will Switch to Arm CPUs by 2020, Says Report

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post #71 of 81 (permalink) Old 03-07-2019, 07:55 AM
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Doubt Apple is moving to anything other than ARM, given how much they have been involved with the development of ARM throughout its history.
There is talk of the A12X having large performance increases putting in line with desktop chips.
However, performance on the whole is an extremely complicated thing to measure, and individual benchmarks have the habit of being cherry-picked. So I retain a degree of skepticism there.
Probably won't know just how ready ARM is for desktop until I see them in daily driver workflows like mine, which they obviously aren't yet.

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post #72 of 81 (permalink) Old 03-07-2019, 08:22 AM
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It's not just Apple:

I calculated the odds of this succeeding versus the odds I was doing something incredibly stupid... and I went ahead anyway.

If it's not coming out for the PC, it's dead to me.
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post #73 of 81 (permalink) Old 03-07-2019, 09:28 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by TK421 View Post
whats metal based on? vulkan?
I had thought metal was originally an S3 developed tech.

https://www.mobygames.com/attribute/...teId,1335/p,3/

It was a graphics API choice in the original Unreal.

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post #74 of 81 (permalink) Old 03-09-2019, 08:42 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by 8051 View Post
I had thought metal was originally an S3 developed tech.

https://www.mobygames.com/attribute/...teId,1335/p,3/

It was a graphics API choice in the original Unreal.
Wasn't aware of S3's Metal API but it looks like Microsoft adopted that Metal API and it's part of DirectX. Apple's Metal API was designed for iOS and was released with iOS 8. Many of macOS Mojave apps are Metal based which is why Apple no longer supports Macs that are pre 2012. If you do have a pre 2012 Mac Pro you can get it to work with a Metal supported video card: AMD 7000 GCN based cards or a GTX 600 kepler based cards that shipped with Macs. Apple is trying to deprecate openGL.

For gaming it was pretty cool thanks to MoltenVK(https://github.com/KhronosGroup/MoltenVK) but Apple is of course against it. Overall all the Metal titles that I've played are playable. Graphics quality is definitely lower than DirectX but the games are much better than the OpenGL titles I've played on macOS.

https://github.com/Microsoft/DirectXTex/wiki/Resources
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S3_Texture_Compression


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post #75 of 81 (permalink) Old 03-11-2019, 02:55 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Nukelear View Post
Winter is not coming, it is already here. People who still doubt ARM desktops/laptop are going to eat crows.
if it outperforms X86 on the programs I use (or will use) then I for one welcome our new RISC overlord.


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post #76 of 81 (permalink) Old 03-11-2019, 09:41 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by DNMock View Post
if it outperforms X86 on the programs I use (or will use) then I for one welcome our new RISC overlord.
I completely agree. ARM feels a whole lot more like the "Future" than x86 does at this point. All we need is for a big player like Apple to fully embrace ARM and give developers a reason to focus their efforts on supporting it moving forward. We are already seeing just that happening with Adobe and their biggest IP's like Photoshop and Premiere. The fact that you will soon be able to utilize the full versions of both of those applications on an iPad (and will likely get better performance than some high-end Intel CPU's on a passively cooled tablet) is incredible and really goes to show the potential of these new ARM designs in the long run.


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post #77 of 81 (permalink) Old 03-12-2019, 01:11 AM
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Apple has announced that it will be holding an event on March 25.
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post #78 of 81 (permalink) Old 03-12-2019, 01:33 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Majin SSJ Eric View Post
I completely agree. ARM feels a whole lot more like the "Future" than x86 does at this point.
I don't understand how people think it is possible to get a RISC architecture as fast as a CISC one if both CPUs are running at the frequency limit of the process. If you can run RISC at a higher frequency then sure, it could be as fast or faster, but at the same clocks it has to be a lot slower, doesn't it?

For mobile RISC makes total sense, we are limited by power use not frequency, but for a workstation? Is Apple going to stop selling desktop class computers? I suppose they might, unifying iOS and their desktop environment would further unify their ecosystem.
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post #79 of 81 (permalink) Old 03-12-2019, 01:49 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
I don't understand how people think it is possible to get a RISC architecture as fast as a CISC one if both CPUs are running at the frequency limit of the process. If you can run RISC at a higher frequency then sure, it could be as fast or faster, but at the same clocks it has to be a lot slower, doesn't it?

For mobile RISC makes total sense, we are limited by power use not frequency, but for a workstation? Is Apple going to stop selling desktop class computers? I suppose they might, unifying iOS and their desktop environment would further unify their ecosystem.

I am definitely not an expert on the "why's" of each type of base architecture, but google search turned up this:


Quote:
Advantages of RISC Architecture

  • The performance of RISC processors is often two to four times than that of CISC processors because of simplified instruction set.
  • This architecture uses less chip space due to reduced instruction set. This makes to place extra functions like floating point arithmetic units or memory management units on the same chip.
  • The per-chip cost is reduced by this architecture that uses smaller chips consisting of more components on a single silicon wafer.
  • RISC processors can be designed more quickly than CISC processors due to its simple architecture.
  • The execution of instructions in RISC processors is high due to the use of many registers for holding and passing the instructions as compared to CISC processors.
Disadvantages of RISC Architecture

  • The performance of a RISC processor depends on the code that is being executed. The processor spends much time waiting for first instruction result before it proceeds with next subsequent instruction, when a compiler makes a poor job of scheduling instruction execution.
  • RISC processors require very fast memory systems to feed various instructions. Typically, a large memory cache is provided on the chip in most RISC based systems.
source


I suppose if RISC can be 2-4x faster, but requires very high performance memory system and good code designing then ARM could end up faster in the long run compared to x86, and with the advent of stacked memory on an interposer we could end up doing something like having 2-4GB of RAM cache space on-package with the CPU cores under the IHS. Not having that sort of tech in the past could have been a significant limitation and why CISC caught on, but now that we can do this maybe it is time to switch everything to RISC?




edit:
though I also found this in another article:
Quote:
all modern microprocessors have at least some elements of RISC. The progression from 8- and 16-bit to 32-bit architectures essentially forced the need for RISC architectures.


Last edited by EniGma1987; 03-12-2019 at 02:03 PM.
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post #80 of 81 (permalink) Old 03-12-2019, 09:34 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
I don't understand how people think it is possible to get a RISC architecture as fast as a CISC one if both CPUs are running at the frequency limit of the process. If you can run RISC at a higher frequency then sure, it could be as fast or faster, but at the same clocks it has to be a lot slower, doesn't it?

For mobile RISC makes total sense, we are limited by power use not frequency, but for a workstation? Is Apple going to stop selling desktop class computers? I suppose they might, unifying iOS and their desktop environment would further unify their ecosystem.
Like Enigma, I am far, far away from any sort of expert in processor architecture. I was just saying that ARM processors "Feel" like the future to me more so than X86, which go all the way back to the original 8086 in 1978. And as far as performance is concerned, I dunno, Apple's designs have been getting exponentially faster and more powerful all the time and the Geekbench scores of the new iPad Pro show the A12X actually out-performing Intel Core i7's in the bench (of course these results are not directly comparable but even still, its a pretty damn impressive considering how low the A12X is clocked, how little power it uses, and how it can do so with passive cooling in a 6mm thick form factor).

Clearly no ARM processor is capable of doing everything that a proper workstation processor is right now, but Apple overall is a very smart and savvy company and you can bet that they will have considered this move to ARM for their desktop PC's very carefully and that they have a plan. Perhaps its as you say and they are going all-in on consumer-level products, merging MacOS and iOS, and getting out of the high-end desktop/workstation business altogether? But its also possible that they really do feel that their own in-house ARM designs have the potential to eventually outperform X86 and they want to get developers to work on supporting ARM for desktop/workstation applications ASAP.


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