[TPU] AMD to Simultaneously Launch Zen 2 and Unveil "Navi" This June - Page 3 - Overclock.net - An Overclocking Community

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[TPU] AMD to Simultaneously Launch Zen 2 and Unveil "Navi" This June

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post #21 of 170 (permalink) Old 04-02-2019, 02:18 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by NightAntilli View Post
And yet no one is buying them. Look at the RX570. It's $130, and MUCH faster than nVidia's 1050 Ti which goes for at least 10% more money. You get two new free games with the RX 570 at that price, and yet it's not to be found anywhere on Steam...

Gamers need to start rewarding AMD when they deserve it. If Navi does the same thing, I'm afraid it's not enough. I'm even starting to think that if we get RTX 2080 level of performance at $200 from AMD, it still would not be enough.
Not really sure if the Steam hardware survey is any sort of indication of anything. It's completely optional and I'd be willing to bet that more people with lower end hardware say no to the survey than those with higher end hardware.

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post #22 of 170 (permalink) Old 04-02-2019, 03:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote: Originally Posted by NightAntilli View Post
And yet no one is buying them. Look at the RX570. It's $130, and MUCH faster than nVidia's 1050 Ti which goes for at least 10% more money. You get two new free games with the RX 570 at that price, and yet it's not to be found anywhere on Steam...

Gamers need to start rewarding AMD when they deserve it. If Navi does the same thing, I'm afraid it's not enough. I'm even starting to think that if we get RTX 2080 level of performance at $200 from AMD, it still would not be enough.
a survey is just that though. ever watch family feud and think WTH kinda answer is that, and it turns out to be the number one? i had looked at their polls recently and thought "wow, no one uses the rx 5**s but thats just what it is, a survey based on the people that actually participated. you would also think there's no wait time for a GTAV MP match based on their stats. but guess again.

Quote: Originally Posted by bigjdubb View Post
Not really sure if the Steam hardware survey is any sort of indication of anything. It's completely optional and I'd be willing to bet that more people with lower end hardware say no to the survey than those with higher end hardware.
im sure some bragging rights come into play, but i would also assume someone that just slammed a 2080ti into their $600 walmart rig would also play the "no time to delay" tactic to get back into their ESO account.

its a mixed bag, surveys, the only one i kinda trust is their games stats for users, and even that is ambiguous considering there is some percentage of users that sit idle after maybe 5 minutes of gamplay or less. all they have to do is launch it, and theyre active.

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post #23 of 170 (permalink) Old 04-02-2019, 04:51 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by bigjdubb View Post
Not really sure if the Steam hardware survey is any sort of indication of anything. It's completely optional and I'd be willing to bet that more people with lower end hardware say no to the survey than those with higher end hardware.



That survey needs updating badly. The "Other" category under CPUs is growing dramatically due to 6 and 8 core processors. And they miss a few metrics that developers could consider when making a game.
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post #24 of 170 (permalink) Old 04-02-2019, 05:18 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by ZealotKi11er View Post
I am guessing 7nm big die is too expensive and AMD does not really want $1000+ GPU.
It can't be more expensive then the Radeon VII since that is a Pro card with HBM and Navi would be a gaming card with GDDR6.

So they wait till the 7nm process becomes even cheaper and let Nvidia catch up and trounce them?

They've had die shrinks before without price hikes, let's not start with Navi 20 is $1000+ because of a die shrink excuse (for the love of...) like 2080Ti is $1200+ because of leftover Pro architecture no one asked for or wanted sold to gamers as a gaming card with little ray tracing support that can't be used effectively anyway.

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post #25 of 170 (permalink) Old 04-03-2019, 02:29 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by TrueForm View Post
If Navi is still GCN I'm not too hyped. Zen 2 however, yep.
If it GCN dont expect too much for it.


But yes Zen 2 should be the game changer.

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post #26 of 170 (permalink) Old 04-03-2019, 06:47 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Gunderman456 View Post
It can't be more expensive then the Radeon VII since that is a Pro card with HBM and Navi would be a gaming card with GDDR6.

So they wait till the 7nm process becomes even cheaper and let Nvidia catch up and trounce them?

They've had die shrinks before without price hikes, let's not start with Navi 20 is $1000+ because of a die shrink excuse (for the love of...) like 2080Ti is $1200+ because of leftover Pro architecture no one asked for or wanted sold to gamers as a gaming card with little ray tracing support that can't be used effectively anyway.
For sure more expensive than VII. VII is only 334mm^2. Big die I am talking close to 500mm^2.

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post #27 of 170 (permalink) Old 04-03-2019, 07:04 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by nonametoclaim View Post
a survey is just that though. ever watch family feud and think WTH kinda answer is that, and it turns out to be the number one? i had looked at their polls recently and thought "wow, no one uses the rx 5**s but thats just what it is, a survey based on the people that actually participated. you would also think there's no wait time for a GTAV MP match based on their stats. but guess again.
Steam should just ammend their EULA and make the hardware survey mandatory and they just collect data from every user each month. With the shady things other companies are doing, getting anonymous hardware usage for games is pretty low on the list.




Quote: Originally Posted by Gunderman456 View Post
It can't be more expensive then the Radeon VII since that is a Pro card with HBM and Navi would be a gaming card with GDDR6.

So they wait till the 7nm process becomes even cheaper and let Nvidia catch up and trounce them?

They've had die shrinks before without price hikes, let's not start with Navi 20 is $1000+ because of a die shrink excuse (for the love of...) like 2080Ti is $1200+ because of leftover Pro architecture no one asked for or wanted sold to gamers as a gaming card with little ray tracing support that can't be used effectively anyway.
A 7nm "big die" would be more expensive than VII. The whole definition of the big die GPU is that it is the largest die of that generation. It would not only be as large or larger of a die as Vega is, but it would yet again use HBM and end up higher cost than VII is.


DIe shrinks without price hikes were way back in the 30nm and larger days. Back then they had advancements that kept things on single patterning process. A while agfo they switched to double patterning, and in 7nm they use quad patterning. This exponentially raises costs. They simply must do more patterns to create transistors because the light source is only so small. That is why the industry has been waiting on Extreme Ultraviolet Lithography for so long, because the new light source is significantly smaller and will allow the nodes to go back to single patterning process. While the cost of the light source is much more expensive, the reduction of quad to single pattern will drastically reduce costs while increasing transistor accuracy. Leading to a better process node with less leakage and higher speed. Without EUV or other new light source, it is impossible to ever have a cost reduction of node change ever again.


They are also working on advancements in nanoprint lithography that may replace EUV at some point too. NIL is single pattern, and does not use the expensive light source and optics like EUV. We have heard promises of it before though and it always failed, however it looks more promising this time with Toshiba doing actual testing on using it for 3D NAND production. They are using a newer advancement called J-FIL, which is a nanoimprint type. If they succeed, it may pave the way for a drastically lower cost process node for things that like NAND, memory cells like HBM and maybe even DRAM, and possibly even mobile processors. But for now, EUV is what things are moving to as Samsung is about to launch their 7nm EUV process. And TSMC is about to launch 7nm+ with EUV.


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post #28 of 170 (permalink) Old 04-03-2019, 07:07 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by ZealotKi11er View Post
For sure more expensive than VII. VII is only 334mm^2. Big die I am talking close to 500mm^2.
Again, let's not start with its cost has doubled/tripled because of die size either since we've had these same scenarios in the past without much of a price hike. Those snakes in the grass don't need much of an excuse these days to upscale the price without upscaling performance and we certainly don't need to encourage them by acting like brainwashed zombies towing company lines.

@ EniGma1987, as for the new pattern process excuse you spoke of (which most peolpe don't know or care about as their only question will be why are prices so criminal), that would be their problem not mine and I'm sure special techniques of various specifications didn't add to the cost in the past either or was eaten initially (as they continued to improve it) to keep prices down. So the company starts giving out this info so zombies become sympathetic and conditioned for price hikes. Don't play their game! Refine it to a point or come up with a new reasonable solution before you start selling it to people - that is why R&D departments exist. You want to sell to the 0.01% or to the masses?

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post #29 of 170 (permalink) Old 04-03-2019, 07:11 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Gunderman456 View Post
Again, let's not start with its cost has doubled/tripled because of die size either since we've had these same scenarios in the past without much of a price hike. Those snakes in the grass don't need much of an excuse these days to upscale the price without upscaling performance and we certainly don't need to encourage them by acting like brainwashed zombies towing company lines.
When we have to do so many passes on the transistors just to create them now at this size it makes the cost per die size greater than it ever has been before, while also having higher failure rates than before.

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post #30 of 170 (permalink) Old 04-03-2019, 08:29 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by NightAntilli View Post
And yet no one is buying them. Look at the RX570. It's $130, and MUCH faster than nVidia's 1050 Ti which goes for at least 10% more money. You get two new free games with the RX 570 at that price, and yet it's not to be found anywhere on Steam...

Gamers need to start rewarding AMD when they deserve it. If Navi does the same thing, I'm afraid it's not enough. I'm even starting to think that if we get RTX 2080 level of performance at $200 from AMD, it still would not be enough.

This is proof of how far off base someone's assesment can be because of incomplete data.
https://benchmarks.ul.com/hardware/?...560.1545958405


AMD #1 in both GPU's and CPU's in 3DMARK/PCMARK submissions for 2019.

Yeah, we do reward AMD when they deserve it, unlike some.
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