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post #3911 of 4047 (permalink) Old 10-22-2015, 10:01 AM
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By Boredgunner: What about OLED screens that look like they're powered off on a black screen?

 

Well, I can tell you it's coming. I do some work for Samsung so have access to their R & D. A lot of resources are being put into this as the first company to produce a monitor (or even TV) size screen will rake in the cash.

For obvious reasons I can't give away any thing that hasn't been publicly announced. I could get into a lot, really a lot of trouble!

 

What I can say is that the problem is Yield. When "pressing" the huge plates that screens are cut off, to put it crudely, it's only viable for small smartphone size screens. It's difficult to find say a 20" x 25" patch without defects.

 

 The vast majority of what is produced is rubbish. The focus of OLED R & D is too vastly improve the production methods in order for it to be viable for mass production. Currently it would cost the maker

many 1,000 dollars to get maybe just ONE flawless patch large enough to produce a monitor. Simply not practical. The tech itself is well understood, it's how to make screens without the vast majority of each production

run useless (due to defects).

 

It will be years, but it will happen. OLED is so good it would render other technologies obsolete. Such as IPS, TN, Plasma etc would just not be able to match the pure black of an OLED. As you know the black is like the 

clean canvas on which images are produced, that's why black is the most important single factor of the many. It affects everything. OLED is the only tech known that can produce real 100% pure black when switched on. The colour gamut and accuracy is out of this world. 5 years maybe? Probably more. A break through in production is needed. Tweaking the current methods does help, but no where near enough.

 

For now I am very happy with my ACER XB270HU 27"  HeHe.


i7 8086k de-lidded @ 5.20GHz. GTX1080ti ftw 3. Taichi z370.
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post #3912 of 4047 (permalink) Old 10-22-2015, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyG View Post

By Boredgunner: What about OLED screens that look like they're powered off on a black screen?

Well, I can tell you it's coming. I do some work for Samsung so have access to their R & D. A lot of resources are being put into this as the first company to produce a monitor (or even TV) size screen will rake in the cash.
For obvious reasons I can't give away any thing that hasn't been publicly announced. I could get into a lot, really a lot of trouble!

What I can say is that the problem is Yield. When "pressing" the huge plates that screens are cut off, to put it crudely, it's only viable for small smartphone size screens. It's difficult to find say a 20" x 25" patch without defects.

 The vast majority of what is produced is rubbish. The focus of OLED R & D is too vastly improve the production methods in order for it to be viable for mass production. Currently it would cost the maker
many 1,000 dollars to get maybe just ONE flawless patch large enough to produce a monitor. Simply not practical. The tech itself is well understood, it's how to make screens without the vast majority of each production
run useless (due to defects).

It will be years, but it will happen. OLED is so good it would render other technologies obsolete. Such as IPS, TN, Plasma etc would just not be able to match the pure black of an OLED. As you know the black is like the 
clean canvas on which images are produced, that's why black is the most important single factor of the many. It affects everything. OLED is the only tech known that can produce real 100% pure black when switched on. The colour gamut and accuracy is out of this world. 5 years maybe? Probably more. A break through in production is needed. Tweaking the current methods does help, but no where near enough.

For now I am very happy with my ACER XB270HU 27"  HeHe.

Yeah, OLED yields are a known issue. I'm happy enough with my Acer XB270HU... except for games with really dark environments. I have heard that Samsung has a 3440 x 1440 100 Hz VA panel in the works... that combined with variable refresh rate would make me happy. wink.gif
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post #3913 of 4047 (permalink) Old 10-25-2015, 11:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyG View Post

By Boredgunner: What about OLED screens that look like they're powered off on a black screen?

Well, I can tell you it's coming. I do some work for Samsung so have access to their R & D. A lot of resources are being put into this as the first company to produce a monitor (or even TV) size screen will rake in the cash.
For obvious reasons I can't give away any thing that hasn't been publicly announced. I could get into a lot, really a lot of trouble!

What I can say is that the problem is Yield. When "pressing" the huge plates that screens are cut off, to put it crudely, it's only viable for small smartphone size screens. It's difficult to find say a 20" x 25" patch without defects.

 The vast majority of what is produced is rubbish. The focus of OLED R & D is too vastly improve the production methods in order for it to be viable for mass production. Currently it would cost the maker
many 1,000 dollars to get maybe just ONE flawless patch large enough to produce a monitor. Simply not practical. The tech itself is well understood, it's how to make screens without the vast majority of each production
run useless (due to defects).

It will be years, but it will happen. OLED is so good it would render other technologies obsolete. Such as IPS, TN, Plasma etc would just not be able to match the pure black of an OLED. As you know the black is like the 
clean canvas on which images are produced, that's why black is the most important single factor of the many. It affects everything. OLED is the only tech known that can produce real 100% pure black when switched on. The colour gamut and accuracy is out of this world. 5 years maybe? Probably more. A break through in production is needed. Tweaking the current methods does help, but no where near enough.

For now I am very happy with my ACER XB270HU 27"  HeHe.

Im sorry but i call this bs. It might have been close to reality like 2-3 years ago, but not in late 2015 for sure. Seeing how lg sells FullHD 50-55" oled TVs for 2200 euro retail price, like final amazon price, it cant be that hard to achieve the same or better yields for 24"-27" monitors, even if they make them 1080p instead of 1440p, which for a start would be ok still.

Yes the yields are still an issue and the biggest factor with oleds, but its nowhere near as what you make it sound like.

If Companies did put enough effort into development we coulda had solid manufactoring processes by now, as LG is showing us. the thing is that it was just way easier for companies to milk the existing technologies like ips and spva and so they went for the easy route. I guess noone can blame them too if ppl kept and still keep buying enough tvs with old tech. Thing is they came up with the bs "curved" gimmick and then 4k, now- since there are no more gimmicks left, they will have to invest into oled researching and optimizing the oled manufacturing process.

Looking at LG progress with oleds, Id speculate that we will have "affordable" desktop monitors in 2-3 years at the latest.
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post #3914 of 4047 (permalink) Old 10-26-2015, 12:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Stars View Post
 
 

Im sorry but i call this bs. It might have been close to reality like 2-3 years ago, but not in late 2015 for sure. Seeing how lg sells FullHD 50-55" oled TVs for 2200 euro retail price, like final amazon price, it cant be that hard to achieve the same or better yields for 24"-27" monitors, even if they make them 1080p instead of 1440p, which for a start would be ok still.

Yes the yields are still an issue and the biggest factor with oleds, but its nowhere near as what you make it sound like.

If Companies did put enough effort into development we coulda had solid manufactoring processes by now, as LG is showing us. the thing is that it was just way easier for companies to milk the existing technologies like ips and spva and so they went for the easy route. I guess noone can blame them too if ppl kept and still keep buying enough tvs with old tech. Thing is they came up with the bs "curved" gimmick and then 4k, now- since there are no more gimmicks left, they will have to invest into oled researching and optimizing the oled manufacturing process.

Looking at LG progress with oleds, Id speculate that we will have "affordable" desktop monitors in 2-3 years at the latest.

 

 

Well, I hope you are right, Stars. 2 - 3 years would be great! I don't know what LG are up to. But according to the guys who develop these things, TVs and Monitors can't be compared. If OLED is to have a big impact on the desktop monitor market they want a "wow," factor when finally released. What you said about curved screens being a gimmick, I totally agree. Also I agree that many companies are milking existing technologies. But a lot simply don't have the money to invest in the new equipment needed to make OLED in volumes large enough to be profitable. But that's now, in two or three years maybe different.

 

If a monitor manufacturer goes down the "cheap OLED" route with only a 1080p screen then I'm sure it could be done in the time line you suggest, perhaps even quicker.

 

So yeah, for a TVs we already see them, and the quality will slowly improve. For monitors it's not quite there yet. After the tech reaches a level of quality to wow people, and to earn the manufacturer a profit, they will move onto building a large scale factory (economies of scale) then release them.

 

The timeline I mentioned was what I heard directly from an engineer who's only job is to develop and research production methods. The first OLED monitors will need to be better than the best IPS 144hz high res. currently available, otherwise it will be a giant yawn. I am only talking high quality monitors, the likes of which we haven't seen yet. TVs are very different from monitors even if the same base tech is used.


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post #3915 of 4047 (permalink) Old 10-26-2015, 06:03 AM
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Ok, I just got home from work (in Japan). I decided to bring up this OLED topic with the chief R+D manager for all thing OLED at Samsung Japan R+D center.  We had an 80 minute very informative and interesting talk. (For me) I'll summarize what he said, it surprised me, it also turns out we were both to some degree wrong.

 

1. OLED Monitors are already produced! But the price is so crazy they are only used in professional equipment, such as fibre optic stomach check and much more. Mainly medical plus very delicate engineering. This is because the accurate color reproduction can tell a trained doctor a lot - the tones of red (blood) in the body for example. The equipment itself is very expensive, so the monitor does not make much difference overall - talking 10s of thousand of dollar equipment and much higher.

 

2. Desktop OLED monitors could be made now, but won't be. Reasons:

 

3. Cost and Cost. Also the very high wavelength colours, blue and beyond only have a guaranteed  life of 700 hours! in the context of a PC monitor. This will improve sooner rather than later and a lot of work is going into it.

 

4. In his opinion, market place/consumer OLED desktop monitors will not be a common choice for 10 years or more. We are stuck with what we have barring any remarkable new tech discovery or new production process. This was his educated "guesstimate"

 

5. In his opinion around 5 years later, possibly a little sooner or later  OLED desktop monitors will reach the consumer market, but will account for a tiny fraction of sales for the first few years. Due to cost of course. And a few other little bits and pieces. 

The 5 year figure does not apply to professional mission critical work where cost is no issue.

 

6. LGs TVs or any TV cannot be used as a comparison. Remember when plasma TVs were the most popular? What about plasma monitors? Ever seen one? There is much more to it than that, but I can't phrase it without breaking contract.

 

7. OLED is well understood, and practically ready for use (bar 700 hour problem) But any company, as of now, 2015, would run a massive loss for various reasons. Think of all the costs involved before even making them, that's just to start.

 

 

Basically, as of 2015, OLED desktop monitors are not viable due to a lot of problems, cost being one of the biggest.

 

Of course, maybe some other company has some advanced R+D that is currently secret, but Samsung I feel is a good representation of such technologies. There is no guarantee that fake or semi OLED -  marketed as OLED will appear soon however.

 

If things stay the way they are they will never be sold as consumer goods. But as with all things improvements will be made. It will happen. How many years ago did you first hear about OLED? Quite a few I bet, and look where we are.

We are not even half way to mass production of very expensive, (but acceptable enthusiast solutions)  OLED considering the incredible quality to OLED desktop monitors in high street shops. New egg and Amazon, you name it.

 

It's all rather disappointing, but bar a big breakthrough, that's how it stands as of now.

 

Everything I have written is public, and comes from a senior OLED engineer at Samsung Japan. A while googling, or talking to an OLED engineer all of this can be found. But there is a lot of confusion (deliberate) about OLED. The majority I can't write here, but it doesn't change these facts, it illustrates them.

 

There are more surprising things I would like to say, but can't. If anyone thinks this is all "b.s." well that's fine. It won't change anything.  But I got this info from probably one of the best sources available to anyone.


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post #3916 of 4047 (permalink) Old 10-26-2015, 09:29 AM
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@AndyG- I didnt mean to discredit your informations or whatever, just thought that all that informatiom was a little outdated. See that thing with 700h on blue oleds isnt up to date any more as well. You can google that many companies were able to extend blue oleds by some significant ammount.

Indeed most of the stuff you wrote in the last post, can be found in some 3 years old google links as well. But thats the bottom line here, that information is like 2-3 years old.

The major difference now is- we already have 10-12" oled tablets with ridiculous PPI and affordable 1080p TVs. And Ive read reviews that ppl play android games on their oled tvs or console games and everythings fine even after a few hundred hours.

But ofcourse as long as the TN/IPS/SPVA monitors are so cheap and oled cant compete with those prices, the mass consumer market will just not be viable for oled PC monitors.

I however was talking about "affordable" oled monitors for us gaming enthusiasts, ppl who already buy a 850 eur Gsync IPS monitor smile.gif Which is almost 3-4x more expensive than the monitors which the regular joes usually buy. I think the first available oled monitors for enthusiasts will cost 1500-1700 eur as 1440p @ 27" or even 4k @ 27", and I think quite a few enthusiasts would actually buy them (me included) if we are guaranteed to at least get 20-30k hours out of the panel. And I personally think such monitors could be available in 2019 or maybe even 2018, which would be 2-3 years from now as I mentioned before (keep in mind its almost 2016).

Anyways, due to the lack of insider information all we can do is speculate and there is ofcourse no need to get offended at speculations or anything like that.

I generally agree which what you wrote with only 1 exception beeing that I think the first enthusiast oled monitors will hit the market earlier than you think. Heck if not- I will buy a 40-46" 4k oled tv and just use that for gaming, once it comes out ofcourse and wont cost more than 1,5-2k eur or so smile.gif
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post #3917 of 4047 (permalink) Old 10-27-2015, 05:49 AM
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@ Stars. Hey man, no problem at all. I am no expert on monitors, I was just passing on what I was told by someone who should be in the know. Actually I didn't know the blue light issue had been solved! Perhaps Samsung are a bit behind a few other companies.    (Not that I would ever say that to them - I am not in R + D, so I wouldn't dare!! Ha Ha). I have to say this engineers comments seemed negative to me too, so your opinion is valid and reasonable. Moreover it's clear to me that you have done your googling/research about this topic so I am interested to hear what you think. It's all good and makes the thread better.  It actually makes more sense than what I was told. Ahh, I just don't know really. I keep repeating this, but I do hope you are correct. Except cost (according to my engineer buddy) there is no reason that we shouldn't have some great OLEDs in a couple of years. It can be done already - at cost. 

 

So no offence taken at all, and I appreciate you posting to clarify your position.

 

It's true that while some info is available we are still speculating about the timeline etc. of OLED, so it's good to get a variety of opinions.

 

We may have drifted somewhat off topic, so I'll add I am still very happy with my ACER. It really is a noticeable improvement from just a year ago, to my eyes anyway. I love it. Now ACER MUST sort out their QC. I bet a lot of people have held off buying this due to the high rates of RMAs. I was lucky. Sometimes I still can hardly believe my eyes. I was playing the new Dirt rally pre-release game yesterday and wow! It doesn't have cutting edge graphics, but the Acer brings out the best. 144Hz IPS varient tech with G-Sync! A year ago I only dreamed of of getting such a monitor in IPS. The combo of high refresh, and the superior color and deeper blacks of IPS type (compared to TN) make for a very pleasant viewing experience. G-Sync isn't needed to the same degree with a GTX 980 as that's a good card and runs the game on ultra at over 144Hz! My card is highly over clocked though. It's the Galax HOF (Hall of Fame) line so I expect the best. But as graphic demands continue to get better, or more resource intensive soon even a 980 will struggle (with some new engines). That's  when G-Sync will pay off. As long as a 4GB vram buffer is enough that is!?! Ah final thought - I hope that DX12 is going to help us out!, but darn, it's been talked about for a long time now, but only talk. We need it Already!

 

Cheers!


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post #3918 of 4047 (permalink) Old 10-27-2015, 11:47 PM
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the sony trimaster oleds have been around for a while.
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post #3919 of 4047 (permalink) Old 10-28-2015, 01:05 PM
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Anyone have problems with flickering on some games? It occurs when i turn overdrive to extreme and run at 144hz. It stops when i either run at 60hz or normal overdrive.
You can test it easily here http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/clock_phase.php move with the window over screen and you should see it. Its most visible when u move the window slowly to the sides.
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post #3920 of 4047 (permalink) Old 10-28-2015, 01:14 PM
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Anyone have problems with flickering on some games? It occurs when i turn overdrive to extreme and run at 144hz. It stops when i either run at 60hz or normal overdrive.
You can test it easily here http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/clock_phase.php move with the window over screen and you should see it. Its most visible when u move the window slowly to the sides.

I'll try when I get home, but it shouldn't flicker since it doesn't use PWM. I think the only time it visibly flickers is at ULMB 85 Hz and maybe also ULMB 100 Hz, neither of which I've tested either (I've only tested it at 120 Hz, no flicker).
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