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post #19621 of 19696 (permalink) Old 11-28-2017, 12:38 PM
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I believe Windows will load the microcode it has only if it is a higher version than what the BIOS loaded.

Windows will load a copy from disk at boot if it decides to. It does not modify the BIOS.

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post #19622 of 19696 (permalink) Old 11-28-2017, 02:35 PM
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d0mini View Post

Does that mean there's separate CPU microcode for both the BIOS and the OS?
Nono, it's just that the OS can update the microcode too.

It should be done as early in the boot process as possible to actually be effective in some cases, but it can be done at any point when the system is powered on if desired.

With Windows we have no realistic chance of updating this, since the microcode DLL's are also signed by Microsoft.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackCY View Post

306C3/19 version, so 19? 1E in windows can be seen everywhere. This is the latest official.
19 (number 25) is the "best for overclocking", or at least used to be. 1E (decimal 30) is the latest that is distributed with Windows. 22 would be decimal 34, so it's obviously newer.

Searching for "4770k microcode" will give you the Intel.com results you are looking for. They are extracted from the Linux Microcode files:
https://downloadcenter.intel.com/download/27337/Linux-Processor-Microcode-Data-File?product=75123
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackCY View Post

While I appreciate such tools and options, flashing UEFI with some tool most likely from Russia etc. and unknown sources of the micro code etc., I see no Intel download, where did they get the ucode??? And so on, don't feel like adding another backdoor for Russian hackers, thanks biggrin.gif
The microcode is heavily encrypted and signed, so there is absolutely 0 chance anyone is gonna be injecting malicious code.

Even if the tool wanted to, it's really limited how much you can actually change in the BIOS/UEFI that would affect system integrity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackCY View Post

A proper custom UEFI would also disable the ME etc. Didn't notice any reference to that.
From what I remember these are often used for RAID version updates for who knows what reason.
Not everyone wants ME to be disabled. Technically, you can't disable it, only neuter it.
It is absolutely necessary for system functionality on Haswell, see coreboot's article on ME
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackCY View Post

Just because one version may or may not allow you to run magically 0.04V lower for stability, it's so low difference it's a margin of error really, it doesn't mean it's faster in applications, it may just be slower by putting less load on the CPU especially with AVX and the like.
Do you think Intel just spits out microcode updates for fun? Of course it's not guaranteed it will increase your OC, but it is recommended to keep your system updated in all aspects.
Also 0.04v is still significant. That would mean another multiplier for some.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackCY View Post

IMHO not worth the trouble to mess with unofficial tools to update UEFI.
Aside from sourcing mmtool.exe it literally takes 2 minutes to go through UBU to update a BIOS.

JackCY I would please request you to provide sources on these claims you are making. You are free to not use these tools, but to discredit them without proof and doing all this guesswork and wording it as if it is the ultimate truth is outrageous.
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Whether you want to use anything is your choice. I’m sure you could ask on the forums there for more details, say if you wanted to find out where the modules are sourced from, and indeed if anyone has looked for or found anything malicious.

You make a really good point on performance, when I have time I’ll try looking into whether there is any obvious performance decrease with the newer firmware. That would give a nice explanation for the ‘magical’ decrease in required voltage besides some other unknown factor. Who knows, maybe it’s the Russians tongue.gif
I don't think Intel would intentionally neuter their chips. Regardless, with UBU it is easy to experiment with this by yourself, albeit costly in time.
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Originally Posted by GeneO View Post

I believe Windows will load the microcode it has only if it is a higher version than what the BIOS loaded.

Windows will load a copy from disk at boot if it decides to. It does not modify the BIOS.
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post #19623 of 19696 (permalink) Old 11-28-2017, 03:20 PM
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I don't trust 3rd party tools for low level stuff as much as I don't trust ME/PSP etc. Absolutely 0 zero chance is what Intel thought with ME as well, until it was hacked numerous times over.
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post #19624 of 19696 (permalink) Old 11-28-2017, 03:31 PM
 
 
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I don't trust ME either, but it still requires local access, or at least LAN access, to your system before the ME exploits are relevant at all. These exploits are also patched by Intel, and there is no way to update these if your motherboard vendor isn't updating it other than by using 3rd party tools.

And yes, everyone thinks there is 0 chance that their system is vulnerable, otherwise they wouldn't ship it. The difference is that the microcode is literally verified with state of the art encryption before it is allowed onto the CPU. If you don't trust this encryption you might as well disconnect entirely from the internet, since everything else on the internet is run using the same encryption standards (AES and PKI)

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post #19625 of 19696 (permalink) Old 11-28-2017, 06:48 PM
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I absolutely found it valuable to update my uefi via ubu. To not only
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackCY View Post

306C3/19 version, so 19? 1E in windows can be seen everywhere. This is the latest official.

While I appreciate such tools and options, flashing UEFI with some tool most likely from Russia etc. and unknown sources of the micro code etc., I see no Intel download, where did they get the ucode??? And so on, don't feel like adding another backdoor for Russian hackers, thanks biggrin.gif
A proper custom UEFI would also disable the ME etc. Didn't notice any reference to that.
From what I remember these are often used for RAID version updates for who knows what reason.

In my own experience a 1.00 old VBIOS without official support for DC works the very same as latest 2.50. Same OC capabilities.

Just because one version may or may not allow you to run magically 0.04V lower for stability, it's so low difference it's a margin of error really, it doesn't mean it's faster in applications, it may just be slower by putting less load on the CPU especially with AVX and the like.

IMHO not worth the trouble to mess with unofficial tools to update UEFI.

There are other reasons besides upgrading the processor ucode and Intel RST drivers, though these are pretty good reason and safe, especially the ucode. I have a Z87 whose last BIOS does not support booting from NVME. I added and EFI module to do that and can now boot from my 960 Pro m.2 drive. There are now non-bios ways to do this, but this is cleaner. Not for everyone I reckon.

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post #19626 of 19696 (permalink) Old 11-28-2017, 06:54 PM
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Quote:
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I don't trust 3rd party tools for low level stuff as much as I don't trust ME/PSP etc. Absolutely 0 zero chance is what Intel thought with ME as well, until it was hacked numerous times over.

Has it been hacked? I just know this latest someone uncovered the vulnerabilities, not hacked it. But clearly having an OS running on the chipset whose details are closely held doesn't give one a warm-fuzzy feeling,

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post #19627 of 19696 (permalink) Old 11-28-2017, 07:07 PM
 
 
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Quote:
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Has it been hacked? I just know this latest someone uncovered the vulnerabilities, not hacked it. But clearly having an OS running on the chipset whose details are closely held doesn't give one a warm-fuzzy feeling,

You are right, the code had vulnerabilities. It is impossible for someone to replace parts or the entirety of the ME even if they wanted to.
ME is still under the same cryptographic scrutiny as the microcode, so changing any part, aside from removing individual parts entirely, will cause your system to be unbootable.

This signing is literally the best solution for now with no known vulnerabilities. But it doesn't mean that the code is without vulnerabilities.

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post #19628 of 19696 (permalink) Old 11-29-2017, 12:20 AM
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Well...it seems that this works!! I updated everything, besides iGPU, and for the first time, ever, my chip completed 5 loops of the x264 Stability Test v2.06 (recent binaries), at 4900 MHz! Never before has my chip achieved this frequency. I recall trying x49 with override VCore up to 1.410V, in the BIOS, resulting in approx. 1.430V under the x264, but it was still failing, all this back when I first got it.

CPU: i7-4790K, non-delidded
Core freq: 4900 MHz
Uncore freq: 4400 MHz
VCore: 1.380V, override, in the BIOS
Cache V: 1.2V, override, in the BIOS
CPU Input V: 1.9V, fixed
LLC: Level 1 (highest on ASRock).
RAM: XPM2, 1.6V

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)


Note: Update version is the same with Previous Update version because I fist updated the CPU microcode, and later I re-flashed and updated everything else


I will continue testing with Adaptive, because that is what I always use, and with all C-States enabled (in this test they were on Auto).

Thanks a lot, +REP thumb.gif

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post #19629 of 19696 (permalink) Old 11-29-2017, 01:02 AM
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@LostParticle I am so, so glad it worked for you! I really do think this is a universal improvement, but we’re only going to find out if people test it. So that makes two of us! Let’s see if anyone else finds improvements biggrin.gif

And on a sidenote, just how good does it feel to suddenly have this extra headroom? tongue.gif

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post #19630 of 19696 (permalink) Old 11-29-2017, 02:48 AM
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Quote:
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@LostParticle I am so, so glad it worked for you! I really do think this is a universal improvement, but we’re only going to find out if people test it. So that makes two of us! Let’s see if anyone else finds improvements biggrin.gif

And on a sidenote, just how good does it feel to suddenly have this extra headroom? tongue.gif

It feels Awesome and it keeps getting better! thumb.gif

I've just retested / re-established my own "Optimized Defaults". I call this OC profile like this because with a VCore value pretty near to Intel's default, I am running quite a bit higher. This profile is very important to me because it is my 24/7 for many months throughout the year, especially in the summertime.

CPU: i7-4790K, non-delidded
Core freq: 4700 MHz
Uncore freq: 4400 MHz
VCore: 1.2V, adaptive, in the BIOS (with the previous "19" microcode I needed 1.24V, adaptive)
Cache V: 1.2V, adaptive, in the BIOS
CPU Input V: 1.7V, fixed
LLC: Level 3
RAM OC: 2400 MHz, 10-11-12-24, 1T, 1.6V
All C-States enabled during testing.

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

Adaptive behavior is good, it is as expected, with "22".

Now I will re-set my per-core OC profile. Until yesterday it used to be x48 x49 x50 x50, since 4800 MHz was the max frequency all 4 cores of mine were stable at. After my x49_stable of today, I will update it to x49 x50 x50 x50 or even x49 x50 x50 x 51...We will see...

PS: yes, it is just 5 loops of the x264, for me. That's what they told me back in the day, adding I should add +0.02V after successful completion, and call it a day. They were ABSOLUTELY right! Personally, instead of adding +0.02V on override, I switch to Adaptive. This "attitude" has NEVER-EVER betrayed me, in ANY way! I do not crash, never did, no BSOD ever, unless I will intentionally cause it with testing. I fully agree that "everything" depends from what one does with his computer, so...I'm glad I use it in a way that allows me to get away with all these. tongue.gif

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