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post #9731 of 10160 (permalink) Old 03-18-2019, 01:39 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by RichKnecht View Post
A quick question. I know what LLC is and what it does. However, say I can run a particular OC at 1.22V and a LLC level of 6. Now, that same overclock can be achieved by raising VCore to 1.225 and lowering LLC to 5. From what I am seeing, the setting with higher vcore but lower LLC seems to run cooler in all benchmarks. Does this make sense, or am I imagining things?
THere's two ways to look at LLC on any voltage rail it is implemented on. The thing you are trying to control is call a Load Line Transient.
From a durability perspective, LLC is there to mitigate V_ovs. V_ovs is the inherent overshoot (milli sec) that occurs when you abruptly change the current flow on any voltage-clamped circuit (eg, VCCIN on x299). At stock settings the spec is somewhere around 50mV normal op, 200mV virus-mode (eg, heavy stability testing). The LLC-permitted droop creates a compensation window/margin for the overshoot that mitigates (most or some of) V_ovs ABOVE what you set as the voltage in bios. So, when running these HEDT chips at an average overclock (what, +20%) you can expect occasional vccin excursions in the higher mV range, especially when doing things like 995 - tho new VRs control this much better than than before. It's a current-based effect, this is why you see more droop at high(er) current loads.
The other way to look at this is LLC also lets you compensate for the inherent undershoot (it's a oscillation around the set value) by starting at a higher voltage before vdroop... ever have a very cpu-intensive benchmark fail right when the bench ends? That's from undershoot. It's a balance.
Basically, IMO, for a 24/7 system, it is s good idea to allow for some "healthy" amount of droop of the rail LLC is acting on (VCCIN or vcore). Extreme benchmarking is different, and undershoot is the concern. In my experience (even in most benchmarks) I've never really experienced a scenario where it is better to meet voltage requirements with LLC increases (eg, lowering vdroop) than by simply increasing the voltage setting and allowing vdroop. In many implementations, LLC simply adds voltage to the value you set in bios... that's the wrong way to use LLC, IMO.
In the pics below, "vdroop" is labeled as "offset" in the early days. These are from socket 775 - when LLC settings were first made available in bios.
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post #9732 of 10160 (permalink) Old 03-18-2019, 03:53 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by kingofblog View Post
LLC applies to Vccin, not Vcore, because SKX is driven by FIVR. You can either increase Vccin or increase LLC to combat Vccin underrun ("phantom throttling"), but I would recommend increasing Vccin to using LLC. LLC causes higher voltage droops, because of the controller delay, which would result in FIVR undervoltage during transient loads.
Hi,
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So with that in mind what is FIVR

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post #9733 of 10160 (permalink) Old 03-18-2019, 04:03 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by ThrashZone View Post
Hi,
Decoder ring is in the shop with no eta for return
So with that in mind what is FIVR

Abbreviations are okay but assume everyone knows what they mean
Fully Integrated Voltage Regulator

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post #9734 of 10160 (permalink) Old 03-18-2019, 04:09 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by CptSpig View Post
Fully Integrated Voltage Regulator
Hi,
Boom thank you Mr. Translator

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post #9735 of 10160 (permalink) Old 03-18-2019, 07:36 PM
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here's my 9900X @ 5.0 R6EO in R20. Approx 80mV droop on VCCIN while running (adaptive vcore, LLC5). A bit hot for me. There is definitely no AVX being used.
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post #9736 of 10160 (permalink) Old 03-19-2019, 05:22 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Jpmboy View Post
here's my 9900X @ 5.0 R6EO in R20. Approx 80mV droop on VCCIN while running (adaptive vcore, LLC5). A bit hot for me. There is definitely no AVX being used.
That's what I am seeing now. I have ~80mv drop under load, drops from 1.96 to 1.88 and everything is just fine. Funny thing is the Strix board would blue screen with drops like that. I guess the Omega has a better, or more consistent power delivery system. I'm impressed that you can get 5GHz out of the chip with those temps. I can't even get to 4.8 without throwing over 1.3V at it and even then, performance gains are very minimal. So, for this chip, 4.7 will have to do. The good thing is, the Iceman frame is still working great and temps don't go above 70C under normal day to day use. I just ran Real Bench for an hour and max temp was 78C. Without the frame, my max temps were ~86C. BTW, what are you using to cool it?

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post #9737 of 10160 (permalink) Old 03-19-2019, 05:50 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by RichKnecht View Post
That's what I am seeing now. I have ~80mv drop under load, drops from 1.96 to 1.88 and everything is just fine. Funny thing is the Strix board would blue screen with drops like that. I guess the Omega has a better, or more consistent power delivery system. I'm impressed that you can get 5GHz out of the chip with those temps. I can't even get to 4.8 without throwing over 1.3V at it and even then, performance gains are very minimal. So, for this chip, 4.7 will have to do. The good thing is, the Iceman frame is still working great and temps don't go above 70C under normal day to day use. I just ran Real Bench for an hour and max temp was 78C. Without the frame, my max temps were ~86C. BTW, what are you using to cool it?
that's 5.0 at 1.4V ... water cooled with a koolance 380i block. 2 360 rads. Open bench... the HWbot benchtable.
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post #9738 of 10160 (permalink) Old 03-19-2019, 06:08 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Jpmboy View Post
that's 5.0 at 1.4V ... water cooled with a koolance 380i block. 2 360 rads. Open bench... the HWbot benchtable.
Hmmm...I really think I need to add another pump to my loop after reading this. Still have yet to install my flow meter, but I really think that 3 360mm radiators and 11 fans should be doing a better job with my setup. The block is clean and there is no air trapped in any of the radiators. The loop can't adequately cool my chip at 1.3V as temps spike to~87-90C. And that is with direct die cooling.

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post #9739 of 10160 (permalink) Old 03-19-2019, 06:30 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Jpmboy View Post
that's 5.0 at 1.4V ... water cooled with a koolance 380i block. 2 360 rads. Open bench... the HWbot benchtable.
Hi,
Yep I guessed it would probably take nearly 1.4v to get 5.0
I was guessing 1.38v but assuming 0.040 for that jump from 4.9's 1.34v

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post #9740 of 10160 (permalink) Old 03-19-2019, 07:05 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by RichKnecht View Post
Hmmm...I really think I need to add another pump to my loop after reading this. Still have yet to install my flow meter, but I really think that 3 360mm radiators and 11 fans should be doing a better job with my setup. The block is clean and there is no air trapped in any of the radiators. The loop can't adequately cool my chip at 1.3V as temps spike to~87-90C. And that is with direct die cooling.
Not only that, he also has 2X GPUs and some Quick Disconnect (added restriction) on his loop....

I guess the following could be restricting your performance..

Fans? What fans are you using?
Radiators not getting enough fresh air...
What is your CPU block?

I might be wrong though.

X299 - i9 7940X
(24 items)
CPU
i9-7940X
Motherboard
Asus Rampage VI Extreme
GPU
Asus Strix GTX 1080Ti OC
RAM
64GB Trident Z RGB
Hard Drive
Samsung M.2 960Pro 512GB
Hard Drive
WD Gold 10TB
Hard Drive
WD Red 4TB
Hard Drive
WD RED 4TB
Hard Drive
WD Green 2TB
Hard Drive
WD Green 2TB
Hard Drive
WD Green 2TB
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Corsair AX1500i
Cooling
MO-RA 420 Pro
Cooling
EK RVIE Monoblock
Cooling
Phanteks Asus Strix 1080Ti GPU Block
Cooling
EK-XTOP Revo Dual D5 PWM
Cooling
Bitspower Fittings
Cooling
Heatkiller 200mm Reservoir
Cooling
9X Corsair ML140 Pro Fans
Case
Coolermaster Cosmos 2
Operating System
Windows 10 Pro
Monitor
BenQ SW320 32" 4K
Mouse
Logitech MX Master 2S
Mouse
Logitech MX Master 2S
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