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Delidding: nail polish when using non-conductive paste?

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post #31 of 38 (permalink) Old 02-20-2019, 10:22 AM
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Someone mentioned not putting LM on the underside of the IHS bc its only if you didnt put enough on the die but this isnt true. The reason you put it on the underside of the IHS is to break the surface tension of the LM when the IHS is installed. If you dont then you will not get proper contact. To prove it, just drop a little on the underside of the IHS then turn it upside down and I guarantee not a single drop sticks to the IHS unless you use a Q Tip to work it into the surface of the IHS. If you were to install it on top of the die and there was no LM to come into contact with the LM already on the die do you think it would make good contact with the IHS or would it have bubbles due to the surface tension? The latter is not only plausible but undeniable as LM doesnt want to stick to the metal right away without a bit of coaxing but once its persuaded to bond then it makes great contact. So this is the reason to always apply LM to both surfaces whether it is Die and IHS or top of IHS and CPU cooler. Without good contact you may as well be using conventional TIM as the 75w per m/K thermal conductivity is likely going to be less than 15. Honestly I wouldnt bother at all unless you were going to apply to top of IHS and cpu cooler as well. Seems like that if you were to put TIM rated at 75w per m/K on the die and TIM rated at 12w per m/K on top of the IHS then that would become a severe thermal conductivity bottleneck nearly nullifying the majority of the hard work that went into the delidding and application of the LM as youd want as much thermal energy being transferred to the cold plate as fast as possible.

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post #32 of 38 (permalink) Old 02-20-2019, 10:30 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by CJMitsuki View Post
Someone mentioned not putting LM on the underside of the IHS bc its only if you didnt put enough on the die but this isnt true. The reason you put it on the underside of the IHS is to break the surface tension of the LM when the IHS is installed. If you dont then you will not get proper contact. To prove it, just drop a little on the underside of the IHS then turn it upside down and I guarantee not a single drop sticks to the IHS unless you use a Q Tip to work it into the surface of the IHS. If you were to install it on top of the die and there was no LM to come into contact with the LM already on the die do you think it would make good contact with the IHS or would it have bubbles due to the surface tension? The latter is not only plausible but undeniable as LM doesnt want to stick to the metal right away without a bit of coaxing but once its persuaded to bond then it makes great contact. So this is the reason to always apply LM to both surfaces whether it is Die and IHS or top of IHS and CPU cooler. Without good contact you may as well be using conventional TIM as the 75w per m/K thermal conductivity is likely going to be less than 15. Honestly I wouldnt bother at all unless you were going to apply to top of IHS and cpu cooler as well. Seems like that if you were to put TIM rated at 75w per m/K on the die and TIM rated at 12w per m/K on top of the IHS then that would become a severe thermal conductivity bottleneck nearly nullifying the majority of the hard work that went into the delidding and application of the LM as youd want as much thermal energy being transferred to the cold plate as fast as possible.

Sounds like you're just parroting information you heard online about needing to. Dozen or so delided CPUs and no issues with any, never put any on the inside of the IHS.

Again: put enough and you don't need to put more on the inside of the IHS. If you don't care about too much LM and have protected the SMDs, sure, put more, it's not going to hurt anything. But it's not necessary.

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post #33 of 38 (permalink) Old 02-20-2019, 11:49 AM
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Pook, can you not take it when someone disagrees with you or do you just want to be argumentative? If you want it laid out in a more scientific way instead of "parroting" what someone said then thats what will happen. LM has a high surface tension, everyone knows this and the reason there is a high surface tension is due to the cohesive properties of the Gallium and Indium alloy. Cohesion is when molecules are attracted to each other and want to pull tighter which is why you see a spherical shape when it is applied from the needle onto the surface of the Die, IHS, etc. This means that it has no initial interest in absorbing into the surface it is sitting on which is why it is mandatory to work it into the surface and sometimes takes a bit of poking and rubbing to finally get it to break that surface tension. Once even a small amount of LM has had its surface tension broken and starts to seep into the microscopic imperfections of the applied surface then once other drops on LM come into contact with its brother that shares the cohesive properties it adds to it just like water would with another drop of water and since the initial drop is already seeping into the cracks then so is the drop that has came into contact with the initial drop so surface tension is broken. In short, since the LM has such a high surface tension due to strong cohesive properties then if you do not apply it to the underside of the IHS it will not make good contact with that surface. It will naturally want to repel that which it does not share a bond with so if you work a small amount into the IHS then it will ensure a proper bond. So before you go accusing someone of "parroting" what they heard without proper evidence you should first educate yourself a bit better on the subject. There are plenty of resources at your fingertips and would be much better than spreading misinformation for no good reason. Just google something like Surface tension and cohesion or something similar.

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Again, it is incorrect to not put LM on both surfaces. You will have sub optimal contact therefore thermal transfer will be reduced. Will you have a drop in temps? More than likely, yes. Is it more likely that with better contact the temps will drop even more? Most assuredly.

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post #34 of 38 (permalink) Old 02-20-2019, 12:02 PM
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post #35 of 38 (permalink) Old 02-20-2019, 12:41 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by The Pook View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by CJMitsuki View Post
Someone mentioned not putting LM on the underside of the IHS bc its only if you didnt put enough on the die but this isnt true. The reason you put it on the underside of the IHS is to break the surface tension of the LM when the IHS is installed. If you dont then you will not get proper contact. To prove it, just drop a little on the underside of the IHS then turn it upside down and I guarantee not a single drop sticks to the IHS unless you use a Q Tip to work it into the surface of the IHS. If you were to install it on top of the die and there was no LM to come into contact with the LM already on the die do you think it would make good contact with the IHS or would it have bubbles due to the surface tension? The latter is not only plausible but undeniable as LM doesnt want to stick to the metal right away without a bit of coaxing but once its persuaded to bond then it makes great contact. So this is the reason to always apply LM to both surfaces whether it is Die and IHS or top of IHS and CPU cooler. Without good contact you may as well be using conventional TIM as the 75w per m/K thermal conductivity is likely going to be less than 15. Honestly I wouldnt bother at all unless you were going to apply to top of IHS and cpu cooler as well. Seems like that if you were to put TIM rated at 75w per m/K on the die and TIM rated at 12w per m/K on top of the IHS then that would become a severe thermal conductivity bottleneck nearly nullifying the majority of the hard work that went into the delidding and application of the LM as youd want as much thermal energy being transferred to the cold plate as fast as possible.

Sounds like you're just parroting information you heard online about needing to. Dozen or so delided CPUs and no issues with any, never put any on the inside of the IHS.

Again: put enough and you don't need to put more on the inside of the IHS. If you don't care about too much LM and have protected the SMDs, sure, put more, it's not going to hurt anything. But it's not necessary.
To repeat, done it both ways. Both had the same result and looked the same when I pulled the lid off.
Delidding is less complicated than people like to make it.

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post #36 of 38 (permalink) Old 02-20-2019, 01:41 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by CJMitsuki View Post
Pook, can you not take it when someone disagrees with you or do you just want to be argumentative? If you want it laid out in a more scientific way instead of "parroting" what someone said then thats what will happen. LM has a high surface tension, everyone knows this and the reason there is a high surface tension is due to the cohesive properties of the Gallium and Indium alloy. Cohesion is when molecules are attracted to each other and want to pull tighter which is why you see a spherical shape when it is applied from the needle onto the surface of the Die, IHS, etc. This means that it has no initial interest in absorbing into the surface it is sitting on which is why it is mandatory to work it into the surface and sometimes takes a bit of poking and rubbing to finally get it to break that surface tension. Once even a small amount of LM has had its surface tension broken and starts to seep into the microscopic imperfections of the applied surface then once other drops on LM come into contact with its brother that shares the cohesive properties it adds to it just like water would with another drop of water and since the initial drop is already seeping into the cracks then so is the drop that has came into contact with the initial drop so surface tension is broken. In short, since the LM has such a high surface tension due to strong cohesive properties then if you do not apply it to the underside of the IHS it will not make good contact with that surface. It will naturally want to repel that which it does not share a bond with so if you work a small amount into the IHS then it will ensure a proper bond. So before you go accusing someone of "parroting" what they heard without proper evidence you should first educate yourself a bit better on the subject. There are plenty of resources at your fingertips and would be much better than spreading misinformation for no good reason. Just google something like Surface tension and cohesion or something similar.

"Better to Remain Silent and Be Thought a Fool than to Speak and Remove All Doubt"

Again, it is incorrect to not put LM on both surfaces. You will have sub optimal contact therefore thermal transfer will be reduced. Will you have a drop in temps? More than likely, yes. Is it more likely that with better contact the temps will drop even more? Most assuredly.

When someone quotes me and tells me I'm wrong knowing I'm not, yes I get annoyed and argumentative. Woe is me, I guess.

"Slightly lower but sub-optimal temps" is not what "worked for a dozen CPUs" means. It means it worked and I got results that were expected.

I'm not going to continue this conversation anymore, the fact several members have said they've done it similar to the way I've done it without an issue should probably tell you something.

Quote: Originally Posted by white owl View Post
Delidding is less complicated than people like to make it.

Yeah, and I don't really understand it. Complexity bias I guess ... make things more complicated because complicated things are more important/accurate?

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Last edited by The Pook; 02-20-2019 at 01:47 PM.
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post #37 of 38 (permalink) Old 02-20-2019, 01:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Don't fight guys, I value all your advice in this thread. I will be putting LM on both sides, because I will be adding gaulk on corners, so I don't want to risk that 1-2mm gap to interfere with cooling.

I think you both are right, just some people don't seal the cpu, so that makes a difference, as black gaulk adds about 1-3 mm of spacing in between. Application also matters, how much you keep the cpu in pressed position, and how much glue agent is applied.

I saw Gamer's Nexus put gaulk, but he would ALWAYS put LM on both sides, then he said that thermals are affected by the gaulk and started putting a tiny bit on corners, then he said forget the gaulk and would just stick the CPU into the socket, and use bracket to stick it there.

In my case I want a cpu that I can safely remove without worry, so gaulk it is, and I will be putting LM on both sides for reason I wrote above.

On the side note: Went back to 1.26 volts on air, and it's stable after running in Aida64 with Geminii S524 cooler (thermally and stability wise)

Looking forward to delidding, it will give a nice temp drop. I am not even sure I will go back to water now. Because temps look phenomenal for my set up

Never thought I will be debating between air and water again. I have H115i Pro coming in mail from Corsair, but now I don't know if I need it.

Going to check the sound of that pump, and see if it's silent, with no buzzing like H105/H100i

I can make this computer completely silent now, as I have fan controllers on the back of the case to reduce sound completely. I can hear my refrigerator more in the kitchen from my room, than PC in my room.
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post #38 of 38 (permalink) Old 02-20-2019, 08:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Completed everything :-)
This is with liquid metal, same settings +-3 degrees in the room (Was testing around 77 F in the room) This is with full copper IHS from Rockit. Idle temps are around 5-8 celcius less, while running chrome and video running on youtube, around 8-12 celcius

Hovers on load around 55-63, not going over 64 Celcius (The dip in the graph is when I stopped the test, and then ran it again)

Nice!

So the maximum delta is affected the most by Liquid Metal. Lower temperatures see less difference, but any kind of load makes the cpu less hot.

I had to scrape a bunch of black gaulk, and it's like crumbs at that point. Messy stuff. Thermal paste was like a dry coconut flakes, it was one of the worst thermal adhesives I have seen in a while, even on GPU.
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