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post #1 of 6 (permalink) Old 05-22-2019, 07:02 AM - Thread Starter
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9900K and ASUS Maximus XI Hero Wifi low vcore?

Been a lurker forever and decided to come here for assistance. Maybe some general advice as well...

My current situation is I just upgraded my MOBO to the XI Hero and it seems like my VCORE is reading abnormally low. I did upgrade to latest BIOS for the MOBO and I can't make sense of my VCORE when I'm testing OC or even stock for that matter. At stock with everything in Auto minus the XMP profile it seems that HWINFO64 reports my VCORE under load much lower than it should be. VID will be showing for example 1.29V but VCORE will show 1.199. I verifed it was not the software as CPU-Z and even the AI Suite III report the same low VCORE. I'm newer to the OC community and it doesn't make sense that in Auto the VCORE should be 0.1V lower than the VID the chip is requesting.

I've done extensive testing and even tried setting up for an OC using any of the guides from Der8auer and such. Whatever I set my manual Core Voltage to in BIOS always reads what seems to be .1V lower no matter what LLC or anything else I'm using.

Please help me out, if my MOBO is bad I would like to know so I can return it and get something else.

As a side note I was able to set a manual VCORE of 1.38 at 5.1 GHz and pass R15, R20 and RB 2.56. My temps were in the 90's so not something I'll do 24/7 but I wanted to stretch the legs of my 9900k and see what it could do. Even during that my Vcore was showing 1.29-1.3 under load with LLC 6 in the ASUS Bios which seems like a lot of Vdroop even for LLC 6. I'll list my system specs below and hopefully someone can help me out. Also any guide or further reading into OC with ASUS or the 9900k would be great, Videos are great but I prefer to read and study rather than watch someone talk about something that takes 2 or 3 mins for an extra 10 mins. My rig is for mostly gaming and streaming and I quite enjoy pushing the limits and learning OC. What are the best things to run for stability testing as I mentioned I use R15 (Non AVX go/no go test for stability) R20 AVX go/no go, RB 2.56 benchmark for stabilty. If I make it through a test of each of those with no errors reported in HWINFO or event logger I consider it to be "stable" for more testing. I just am not sure what to use for actual long term stabilty testing.

Thank you for taking time to read this have a wonderful day.

System:
I9-9900K
ASUS Maximus XI Hero Wi-Fi
32GB Corsair Vengenance Pro RGB 3000Mhz C15
Corsair H115i AIO Top Exhaust Pull
Nvidia RTX 2080 w/ EVGA Hybrid Cooler AIO
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post #2 of 6 (permalink) Old 05-22-2019, 07:41 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Sleakcavi View Post
Been a lurker forever and decided to come here for assistance. Maybe some general advice as well...

My current situation is I just upgraded my MOBO to the XI Hero and it seems like my VCORE is reading abnormally low. I did upgrade to latest BIOS for the MOBO and I can't make sense of my VCORE when I'm testing OC or even stock for that matter. At stock with everything in Auto minus the XMP profile it seems that HWINFO64 reports my VCORE under load much lower than it should be. VID will be showing for example 1.29V but VCORE will show 1.199. I verifed it was not the software as CPU-Z and even the AI Suite III report the same low VCORE. I'm newer to the OC community and it doesn't make sense that in Auto the VCORE should be 0.1V lower than the VID the chip is requesting.

I've done extensive testing and even tried setting up for an OC using any of the guides from Der8auer and such. Whatever I set my manual Core Voltage to in BIOS always reads what seems to be .1V lower no matter what LLC or anything else I'm using.

Please help me out, if my MOBO is bad I would like to know so I can return it and get something else.

As a side note I was able to set a manual VCORE of 1.38 at 5.1 GHz and pass R15, R20 and RB 2.56. My temps were in the 90's so not something I'll do 24/7 but I wanted to stretch the legs of my 9900k and see what it could do. Even during that my Vcore was showing 1.29-1.3 under load with LLC 6 in the ASUS Bios which seems like a lot of Vdroop even for LLC 6. I'll list my system specs below and hopefully someone can help me out. Also any guide or further reading into OC with ASUS or the 9900k would be great, Videos are great but I prefer to read and study rather than watch someone talk about something that takes 2 or 3 mins for an extra 10 mins. My rig is for mostly gaming and streaming and I quite enjoy pushing the limits and learning OC. What are the best things to run for stability testing as I mentioned I use R15 (Non AVX go/no go test for stability) R20 AVX go/no go, RB 2.56 benchmark for stabilty. If I make it through a test of each of those with no errors reported in HWINFO or event logger I consider it to be "stable" for more testing. I just am not sure what to use for actual long term stabilty testing.

Thank you for taking time to read this have a wonderful day.

System:
I9-9900K
ASUS Maximus XI Hero Wi-Fi
32GB Corsair Vengenance Pro RGB 3000Mhz C15
Corsair H115i AIO Top Exhaust Pull
Nvidia RTX 2080 w/ EVGA Hybrid Cooler AIO
1.38v set in bios, with 1.3v shown at full load?
Assuming you're drawing 140 amps there, LLC6 is probably 0.4 mOhms of loadline. 140 * 0.4 =56mv, so 56mv of vdroop (if that's an accurate amps value). Then subtracting that vdroop in mv from the bios setting, 1380-56=1324mv at full load. I usually run realbench at 5.1 ghz @ 1.335v or 1.340v, and my amps is close to there, and you're at a higher voltage. Most likely your vcore reading is accurate.

Set your CPU to 4.7 ghz in the bios, set voltage to 1.20v (not higher).
Then set your LLC to level 8 (maximum).
Do a realbench 2.56 and post back your load vcore shown. Then we will know if your board is working properly or not. LLC8 is a 0 mOhm loadline (but with HORRIBLE transient response--avoid small FFT AVX prime95 at this LLC as both undershoots and overshoots will exceed 100mv and those cannot be seen except via an oscilloscope).

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post #3 of 6 (permalink) Old 05-22-2019, 07:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote: Originally Posted by Falkentyne View Post
1.38v set in bios, with 1.3v shown at full load?
Assuming you're drawing 140 amps there, LLC6 is probably 0.4 mOhms of loadline. 140 * 0.4 =56mv, so 56mv of vdroop (if that's an accurate amps value). Then subtracting that vdroop in mv from the bios setting, 1380-56=1324mv at full load. I usually run realbench at 5.1 ghz @ 1.335v or 1.340v, and my amps is close to there, and you're at a higher voltage. Most likely your vcore reading is accurate.

Set your CPU to 4.7 ghz in the bios, set voltage to 1.20v (not higher).
Then set your LLC to level 8 (maximum).
Do a realbench 2.56 and post back your load vcore shown. Then we will know if your board is working properly or not. LLC8 is a 0 mOhm loadline (but with HORRIBLE transient response--avoid small FFT AVX prime95 at this LLC as both undershoots and overshoots will exceed 100mv and those cannot be seen except via an oscilloscope).
As soon as I get home from work I will give that a shot and post results. For my learning purposes even when everthing is in auto optimized settings and VID shows 1.29 but Vcore is 1.199 under load is that not a good indication due to not knowing exactly what LLC is set since its in Auto. As I understand and please correct me if I'm wrong, but VID is what the CPU is requesting to run the freq. and Vcore is whats actually being supplied?

Any other info I should provide besides the load vcore? Watts or anything else? Also just to be sure start with optimized settings, and set sync all core to 47 manually, manual 1.20V and LLC 8?

Last edited by Sleakcavi; 05-22-2019 at 08:02 AM. Reason: Phrasing
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post #4 of 6 (permalink) Old 05-22-2019, 08:49 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Sleakcavi View Post
As soon as I get home from work I will give that a shot and post results. For my learning purposes even when everthing is in auto optimized settings and VID shows 1.29 but Vcore is 1.199 under load is that not a good indication due to not knowing exactly what LLC is set since its in Auto. As I understand and please correct me if I'm wrong, but VID is what the CPU is requesting to run the freq. and Vcore is whats actually being supplied?

Any other info I should provide besides the load vcore? Watts or anything else? Also just to be sure start with optimized settings, and set sync all core to 47 manually, manual 1.20V and LLC 8?
Yes, use vcore. Load vcore with LLC8 should be no more than 16mv off the bios setting.

Do not use VID. VID is based on the CPU internal pre-programmed default VID from CPU Core/Cache ratios (up to the highest turbo multiplier) and biased by AC Loadline, then drooped by DC Loadline (on Auto voltages, DC Loadline does not affect actual voltage going to the VRM, only AC loadline does, but DC loadline affects the "VID" in the exact same way that "CPU Vcore Loadline Calibration" affects the vcore in mOhms!). VID is used as a target voltage (assuming a 0.0mv offset) for adaptive/auto voltages. Vcore is what the VRM is actually sending to the CPU. Static (manual) voltages bypass AC and DC loadline completely with respect to vcore, but VID is still affected by AC/DC loadline regardless.

CPU Package Power is often not reported correctly. The normal registers for CPU Package Power are based on VID * Amps, and can be biased by IMON SLOPE and IMON OFFSET. Some motherboards re-route this to VCORE * Amps, but not all do.

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post #5 of 6 (permalink) Old 05-22-2019, 10:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote: Originally Posted by Falkentyne View Post
Yes, use vcore. Load vcore with LLC8 should be no more than 16mv off the bios setting.

Do not use VID. VID is based on the CPU internal pre-programmed default VID from CPU Core/Cache ratios (up to the highest turbo multiplier) and biased by AC Loadline, then drooped by DC Loadline (on Auto voltages, DC Loadline does not affect actual voltage going to the VRM, only AC loadline does, but DC loadline affects the "VID" in the exact same way that "CPU Vcore Loadline Calibration" affects the vcore in mOhms!). VID is used as a target voltage (assuming a 0.0mv offset) for adaptive/auto voltages. Vcore is what the VRM is actually sending to the CPU. Static (manual) voltages bypass AC and DC loadline completely with respect to vcore, but VID is still affected by AC/DC loadline regardless.

CPU Package Power is often not reported correctly. The normal registers for CPU Package Power are based on VID * Amps, and can be biased by IMON SLOPE and IMON OFFSET. Some motherboards re-route this to VCORE * Amps, but not all do.
Alright just got home and was able to run the test you mentioned. 1.20V set in BIOS. Idle Vcore 1.190, loaded it stays at 1.19 with a minimum of 1.181 and maximum of 1.208 (I am assuming overshoot/undershoot there) Seems to me that it is in fact reading the Vcore correctly which is a relief because I only have Best Buy around which means I'm limited to MSI or ASUS MOBO and they don't typically carry the enthusiast grade boards in large quantities so a replacement would have been hard to come by (None in a 200 mi range).

On a side note what LLC should I run to start using in trying to lock down a stable OC now that I know I can trust my Vcore reading that I'm seeing? And this is a very noobish question but I shouldn't go over 1.42V in Bios trying to chase higher clocks correct? My ultimate goal is to find a stable 5.0 GHz OC but I know my chip will do 5.1 GHz with extra voltage and heat which when not stressing to test it very manageable by my cooling setup. Thanks for the help I very much appreciate it. I'm tryin to learn and its always best to ask questions from those more experienced than trying to sift through numerous videos.
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post #6 of 6 (permalink) Old 05-22-2019, 10:44 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Sleakcavi View Post
Alright just got home and was able to run the test you mentioned. 1.20V set in BIOS. Idle Vcore 1.190, loaded it stays at 1.19 with a minimum of 1.181 and maximum of 1.208 (I am assuming overshoot/undershoot there) Seems to me that it is in fact reading the Vcore correctly which is a relief because I only have Best Buy around which means I'm limited to MSI or ASUS MOBO and they don't typically carry the enthusiast grade boards in large quantities so a replacement would have been hard to come by (None in a 200 mi range).

On a side note what LLC should I run to start using in trying to lock down a stable OC now that I know I can trust my Vcore reading that I'm seeing? And this is a very noobish question but I shouldn't go over 1.42V in Bios trying to chase higher clocks correct? My ultimate goal is to find a stable 5.0 GHz OC but I know my chip will do 5.1 GHz with extra voltage and heat which when not stressing to test it very manageable by my cooling setup. Thanks for the help I very much appreciate it. I'm tryin to learn and its always best to ask questions from those more experienced than trying to sift through numerous videos.
There's a 15mv resolution on the vcore sensor I think, so that's accurate.

No that's not overshoot or undershoot. Overshoot and undershoot happens in microseconds (units="us" in some strange squiggly letters) and can't be measured accurately unless it's sustained. Usually undershoot and overshoot is spec'd to be around 40 microseconds in duration (Intel calls this "Virus mode") and not to exceed 200mv. This however is based with a -standard- loadline of 1.6 mOhms (meaning loadline calibration is NOT used, or set to default), as then vdroop prevents overshoot and undershoot from affecting you.

Loadline calibration (LLC) helps reduce vdroop, however this comes at the cost of worse transient response. Transient response, for lack of a better explanation, is basically when the "missing" vdroop that you removed with loadline calibration, comes *BACK* due to sudden extremely fast load swings, except coming back in -both- directions. And naturally, the more vdroop you remove, the more will obviously "come back". This is obviously going to be worse at higher current (amps), because vdroop is by definition = Resistance * Current. Resistance is the loadline mOhms value (default for loadline calibration=Standard (Normal) is 1.6 mOhms, and amps is well, current. Gigabyte and some Asrock and MSI boards have VRM monitoring of current via VR IOUT, but I don't think Asus boards have current monitoring.

The problem with a 0 mOhm loadline is, since all vdroop is removed, when load changes happen, the vdroop actually winds up coming back for extremely short (microsecond) durations--the higher the current, the more droop comes back during a wild load swing. This vdroop is a "SPIKE" (not a droop) when load changes from heavy load to light (or no) load, and a droop (drop) when load changes from no load to heavy load. The spikes, if they exceed 1.4v, can slowly degrade your processor, and the drops can cause BSOD/crashes. There isn't really any way around this, but boards with better VRM's and tighter switching frequencies will have better transient response.

Here is the worst case scenario of a 0 mOhm loadline with an extremely heavy load (like prime95 AVX small FFT). And again remember sensors cannot pick this up. you need an oscilloscope.

(Pictured in attachment below this post).

That's why LLC8 should be avoided when overclocking at higher voltages. . The only point to LLC8 is when on LN2, or at low overclocks/low voltages, when using low loads. Otherwise you gain basically nothing compared to using LLC6 + a higher bios voltage (or VID, if using auto voltages + AC Loadline=0.01 mOhms (remember AC loadline is NOT LLC !!))

LLC7 is "Ok" to use for gaming at average overclocks as current load isn't going to put you in the danger zone for spikes, but LLC6 is the best compromise. LLC5 has even better transients than LLC6 (remember: the more vdroop you have, the better the transient response will be, because vdroop helps "cushion" transient drops (as they become "part" of the vdroop) while also limiting spikes as well--the less LLC you use, the less the spikes will go past original bios voltage!)

Here's an example of virus mode on my gigabyte board:

5 ghz, 4.7 ghz cache. SVID OFFSET: ENABLED (this greys out all voltage control, even Auto voltage), IA AC Loadline=0.9 mOhms, IA DC Loadline=1.6 mOhms (DC Loadline=1.6 mOhms matches VRM Loadline Calibration=Standard, which is the Intel reference value--this keeps CPU VID=CPU VR VOUT (VCC_SENSE) vcore!), CPU VCore Loadline Calibration=Standard (1.6 mOhms)

Prime95 small FFT (29.8 build 3) with AVX enabled:
1.230v VCC_Sense (VR VOUT)--CPU no-die sense voltage full load--182 amps (Gigabyte has Current IOUT monitoring via VR IOUT): Stable (temps: 94C)
Idle voltage (VR VOUT) is 1.332v.

Fun fact: At the default IA AC Loadline value of 1.6 mOhms, if SVID offset is enabled, IDLE voltage is still the same as SVID Offset: Disabled (see below), but VR VOUT with prime small FFT AVX is 1.330v (!!!!!). That's 212 amps (yes, 212 amps!! That exceeds Intel absolute max for 9900K which is 193 amps). Temps reach 105C in LESS than 10 seconds! SVID offset increases load voltage to compensate for weak Silicon Lottery losers, while keeping idle voltage the same. That's why setting IA AC Loadline to 0.9 mOhms (instead of 1.6 mOhms) helps reduce VR VOUT at full load from 1.330v to 1.230v.

ok example #2:
5 ghz, 4.7 ghz cache, SVID offset: Disabled, CPU Vcore: Auto. IA AC Loadline=1.6 mOhms, IA DC Loadline=1.6 mOhms, CPU Vcore Loadline Calibration=Standard (1.6 mOhms)
Prime95 29.8 build 3. small FFT with AVX:
VR VOUT: 1.240v, Current: 184.250 Amps, Temps: 97C,
Stable
Idle Voltage (VR VOUT) is 1.404v.

(tests are stable because AC Loadline actually boosts the internal VRM voltage to 1.518v at load (SVID Offset: disabled), then full vdroop (1.6 mOhms) drops it down to 1.230-1.240v at load, with excellent transient response. SVID Offset:Enabled with AC Loadline=0.9 mOhms boosts the internal VRM voltage up to about the same (1.510v) at load, then full vdroop drops it back down safely.

Ok the point of this wall of text?

Drumroll please:
Example #3:
Manual voltage: 1.30v
Loadline Calibration=Turbo (= LLC6 on your Asus). 0.4 mOhms of Loadline calibration.
Prime95 small FFT w/ AVX:
VR VOUT 1.230v. Amps: 185.

Thread crashes in seconds.
(why? Because transient response penalty. Prime95 does not do a 100% sustained load constantly (nothing does), so an oscilloscope reading would show the voltage dropping repeatedly below 1.230v and spiking higher than 1.3v also).
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