Need insanely high voltages to get RAM barely stable @ DDR4-4000 or CR1, can't even mind to get higher - plz help! - Overclock.net - An Overclocking Community

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Need insanely high voltages to get RAM barely stable @ DDR4-4000 or CR1, can't even mind to get higher - plz help!

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post #1 of 11 (permalink) Old 06-23-2019, 11:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Need insanely high voltages to get RAM barely stable @ DDR4-4000 or CR1, can't even mind to get higher - plz help!

I simply C&P'ed the text from an identical thread in ROG Forums, because it doesn't make sense to rewrite it all over again - though, I enhanced the formatting a bit and added some additional emphasis on certain ponts, the text is almost the same; as are the screenshots.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi folks,

Just a little over a month ago, I started overclocking my new hardware setup. CPU Overclocking went relatively fine so far (though the voltage necessary to achieve stability is a little too much...) ; right now, I'm running the CPU @ 4.8/4.8/4.5 GHz (Core/AVX/Cache) with 1.35V of manual fixed voltage with LLC Level 5 - and it seems, that there is still a little headroom left for going higher but that isn't my priority right now.

My actual priority is Memory Overclocking and that didn't go nice at all since the very beginning. Initially, I was optimistic - my memory kit seemed to readily pack DDR4-4000 @ CL16-16-16-32 (or 40), maybe even @ CR1, but I don't remember anymore what voltages I had to give or whether it was CR2 or indeed CR1. However, soon reality kicked in, and I realized that the memory is unstable at those speeds and/or latencies and especially at CR1. But much more demoralizing is the fact, that I need very high voltages to stabilize the memory @ DDR4-4000 CL16 even without CR1 (@ CR2). More on that later.

CR1 works fine and absolutely flawless at any CPU/Cache frequency at the default XMP speed (DDR4-3200) at the rated timings (CL14) but with tRAS lowered to 28 (14-14-14-28) and some secondary timings enhanced.

At DDR4-3600, I already start to run into problems with CR1 @ CL15-15-15-30: I need significantly more or much more voltages (VDIMM, VCCIO, VCCSA) just to get the memory to POST or boot into Windows! More importantly, it seems that no matter how high I crank up the voltages, the memory just isn't STABLE! Sometimes during booting Windows, sometimes within a few minutes after booting into Windows, sometimes after a couple of hours playing Arma 3 (which takes much advantage of higher RAM speeds, respectively a lower memory latency), sometimes after many hours of playing or using Windows, the system will CRASH! Sometimes (more often than occasional) the system won't even POST after a restart and needs a couple of loops (memory training???) before successfully POSTing or booting Windows again. It just isn't stable.

For CR2, I need a VDIMM of "only" 1.4V along with VCCIO 1.1V and VCCSA 1.15V for DDR4-3600 at the same latencies (CL15-15-15-30).

For DDR4-4000 @ CR2 @ CL16-16-16-32 (or 40), I need at least VDIMM 1.55V, VCCIO 1.175V and VCCSA 1.225V to get the system *barely* stable - and this isn't even CR1, this is CR2! Like with DDR4-3600 CR1, the system is never fully stable at those speeds, despite CR2 - it will likely crash on the next day or within a few hours.

However, at least for DDR4-4000 (CR2, 16-16-16-32), it seems that I'm very close to achieve full/permament stability. The situation definitely improved - I can now sometimes play for many hours (I tested Arma 3 only, though) or even use my system 1-2 days before it finally crashes. But when it crashes, the next crash very soon follows if I keep staying at that setting - that's why I often revert to default XMP setting (DDR4-3200 with above-mentioned timings and default voltages) in order to give the system time to "recover" before trying again...

Not even minding stability, the system won't even POST when I try to go higher - if I either increase frequency (I tried DDR4-4266 CL16 with a 100:133 strap, CR2) or try to lower latency (going from CL16 down to CL15 for DDR4-4000, CR2). No matter what insane voltages I give (I gave up to 1.675V VDIMM, 1.30V VCCIO and 1.30V VCCSA in both cases), the system endlessly loops trying to POST without success - after the 5th failed loop, ASUS Safe Mode kicks in and I try to adjust voltages and/or settings without leading to success...


My end goal is either DDR4-4000 CL16 @ CR1 or DDR4-4000 CL15 @ CR2 or alternatively DDR4-4266 CL16 @ CR2 - in the latter two variants, the absolute latency is the same... 7.5 nanoseconds. So, either 8 nanoseconds @ CR1 *or* 7.5 nanoseconds @ CR2. And 4000MHz frequency as minimum.


My impressions:

- I often have the feeling, that I'm running into a wall at certain settings - no matter how much voltage I give, it just doesn't work. Which leads to Point #2 (next point)...

- When hitting "the wall", very often the possibility comes into my mind, that not voltage but something else is the bottleneck - most likely other memory-related BIOS settings like DRAM Ref Voltage Control, RTL-IOL Control, Skew Control, Memory Training, MRC Fast Boot & MCH Full Check, enabling or disabling unused DIMM slots, DRAM Clock Period, other more "exotic" voltages (f.e. "DRAM VTT Voltage" or "VPPDDR Voltage" and others - those two are listed in "Tweaker's Paradise" menu) or even raising Core/Cache voltage!

- I get the impression, that increasing main memory voltages (VDIMM, VCCIO, VCCSA) does *not* prevent a crash (hence, bring out stability) but only POSTPONES it - the higher the voltage, the longer it takes before the crash finally occurs!

- Can increasing Core/Cache voltage aid in achieving stability? I ask this because since Skylake, core voltage and cache voltage are linked. If the IMC of the CPU is even slightly affected by Cache/Uncore overclocking or the Cache is even slightly affected by memory overclocking (higher frequency and/or tighter timings), then increasing Core/Cache voltage perhaps could do the trick.

- Memory temperatures were never a subject of the problem. I repeatedly checked AIDA64 logs and even after hours of stressful runs (high memory frequencies, aggressive timings, very high memory voltages, Uncore overclocked @ 4.5 GHz), both DIMMs never even reached 45°C ! So, if AIDA64's measurements are indeed correct, temperature as a cause for stability problems can likely be excluded...



Here is an exerpt (not complete list!) of the BIOS settings I picked up in my BIOS menu, whom I think I could experiment with to fix stability issues or achieve higher frequencies/lower timings:


Voltages:

- "PLL Termination Voltage"

in "Tweaker's Paradise" menu:

- "DRAM VTT Voltage"
- "VPPDDR Voltage"
- "DMI Voltage"
- "Core PLL Voltage"
- "Internal PLL Voltage"
- "Ring PLL Volltage"
- "System Agent PLL Voltage"
- "Memory Controller PLL Voltage"
- "PLL Bandwidth"
- "Eventual DRAM Voltage"
- "Eventual PLL Termination Voltage"
- "Eventual DMI Voltage"

Settings:

- "DRAM Write Recovery Time"
- "DRAM Write Latency"
- "DRAM CLK Period"
- "DLLBwEn"
- "Training Profile"
- "XTU Setting"

Sections:

- "Memory Training Algorithms"
- "DRAM Ref Voltage Control"
- "RTL-IOL Control"
- "Skew Control"



Additional Notes:

My actual Rig with complete system specs is available in my sig - all necessary information should be available there!



This is the current BIOS configuration I'm barely stable with @ DDR4-4000 CL16:
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T.S.O.M. - The Spirit of Morpheus
CPU
Intel Core i5-9600K (boxed)
Motherboard
ASUS Maximus X Hero (Z370, BIOS-Version 1801)
GPU
Gigabyte GeForce GTX 770 WindForce 3X OC Rev. 2 [PCIEX16/X8_1]
RAM
G.Skill Trident Z RGB (F4-3200C14D-16GTZR) [A2 & B2]
Hard Drive
Samsung SSD 970 Evo Plus (M.2, PCIe x4, NVMe 1.3) [M.2_1]
Hard Drive
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Optical Drive
LG Electronics BH16NS55 retail (black)
Power Supply
be quiet! Pure Power L8 (BN224)
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Noctua NH-D15 Air Cooler
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Phanteks Enthoo Pro Tempered Glass Edition
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Logitech G510s Gaming Keyboard
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Last edited by T.S.O.M.; 06-23-2019 at 11:31 AM.
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post #2 of 11 (permalink) Old 06-23-2019, 05:56 PM
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we don't know your specs. your sig rig is empty and you didn't put any information other than what timings you want in your OP. we have no idea if you're being too ambitious or if there's actually an issue.

plus, what timings/settings you want is kind of irrelevant. if you want 4000 CR1, buy a 4000 CR1 kit that's on your motherboard's QVL. otherwise, it's a lottery. my RAM won't run at 1T above ~3200 and won't boot at all above 4200 regardless how much voltage and wishful thinking I put into it, but that doesn't mean there's an issue.

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post #3 of 11 (permalink) Old 06-24-2019, 09:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote: Originally Posted by The Pook View Post
we don't know your specs. your sig rig is empty and you didn't put any information other than what timings you want in your OP. we have no idea if you're being too ambitious or if there's actually an issue.
I'm sorry - I overlooked the "Components" tab in the Rig page and instead filled my system specs into the "Full Description" page, which is not shown on my sig. However, I now added all existing components to the "Components" tab - they should now be all shown on my signature

Quote: Originally Posted by The Pook View Post
plus, what timings/settings you want is kind of irrelevant. if you want 4000 CR1, buy a 4000 CR1 kit that's on your motherboard's QVL. otherwise, it's a lottery. my RAM won't run at 1T above ~3200 and won't boot at all above 4200 regardless how much voltage and wishful thinking I put into it, but that doesn't mean there's an issue.
Of course, it's a lottery. But from Samsung B-Die, I can expect or hope to successfully run DDR4-4000 or above - the possibility is there, as long as the MB and the CPU IMC are not completely potato samples and the board itself is a high-end board (like mine is!).

That's why I specifically asked for other bottlenecks or what else can be done... (look at the red-highlighted BIOS settings list in my OP)

T.S.O.M.

T.S.O.M. - The Spirit of Morpheus
CPU
Intel Core i5-9600K (boxed)
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ASUS Maximus X Hero (Z370, BIOS-Version 1801)
GPU
Gigabyte GeForce GTX 770 WindForce 3X OC Rev. 2 [PCIEX16/X8_1]
RAM
G.Skill Trident Z RGB (F4-3200C14D-16GTZR) [A2 & B2]
Hard Drive
Samsung SSD 970 Evo Plus (M.2, PCIe x4, NVMe 1.3) [M.2_1]
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Western Digital WD Gold 8TB
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be quiet! Pure Power L8 (BN224)
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Noctua NH-D15 Air Cooler
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post #4 of 11 (permalink) Old 06-24-2019, 12:05 PM
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A Maximus XI/X Hero is *NOT* a high end board.
It's mainstream (Considered B-tier). The XI Apex, XI Extreme and XI Gene are high end.
https://linustechtips.com/main/topic...uded-vrm-list/

Not only that, you're using a 9th gen CPU in an 8th gen board. Capabilities are not going to be exactly the same, and that 9600K may not have the best IMC, either.

So you're using a budget 9th gen (Yes, a 9600K is budget) CPU on a mainstream 8th gen board and don't like the results...

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post #5 of 11 (permalink) Old 06-24-2019, 03:03 PM
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I would say your wrong about dimm temps, my B-die don't like anything north of 40c when oc'd.

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post #6 of 11 (permalink) Old 06-25-2019, 08:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote: Originally Posted by Falkentyne View Post
A Maximus XI/X Hero is *NOT* a high end board.
It's mainstream (Considered B-tier). The XI Apex, XI Extreme and XI Gene are high end.
https://linustechtips.com/main/topic...uded-vrm-list/
It may not be an enthusiast board, but it's not a mainstream board either. Maximus X/XI Apex, Extreme are not high-end boards, they are enthusiast boards ("Tier S") - above high-end! In the "Tier A" section, there are no ASUS-branded boards at all - that's exactly the section, where I would expect the Maximus X/XI Hero to be.

Now I know from the news/reports I've heard, that the VRMs of the XI Hero (11, Z390) are cheap and not high quality, but does that automatically mean, the same is true for X Hero (10, Z370) ?

The ASUS Prime & Strix series I would consider "mainstream boards", but not ANY member of the Maximus series... (of course, that's my personal opinion only)

Quote: Originally Posted by Falkentyne View Post
Not only that, you're using a 9th gen CPU in an 8th gen board. Capabilities are not going to be exactly the same, and that 9600K may not have the best IMC, either.

So you're using a budget 9th gen (Yes, a 9600K is budget) CPU on a mainstream 8th gen board and don't like the results...
Yes that's true - 9600K is a budget CPU; I bought it temporarily until the 9900K falls from it's ridiculously high price (yes, it's still a bit overpriced!). And yes, I also have the suspicion, that it's IMC is just crap - but how can I determine, whether the problem lies on the CPU IMC or the memory kit itself?

PS: I'm sorry, I couldn't respond to neither you, nor the other member who replied in my same thread at ROG-Forums - since days, I'm stuck with "access denied" and "message too short" errors. The forum software of ROG-Forums must be complete garbage. I couldn't even upload the remaining BIOS screenshots (which I accomplished in this forum), but I do managed to fill my system specs on my ROG profile.

Quote: Originally Posted by gammagoat View Post
I would say your wrong about dimm temps, my B-die don't like anything north of 40c when oc'd.
I don't intend to deny the validity of your argument, but a G.Skill employee himself said, that "anything below 50°C" is okay.

T.S.O.M.

T.S.O.M. - The Spirit of Morpheus
CPU
Intel Core i5-9600K (boxed)
Motherboard
ASUS Maximus X Hero (Z370, BIOS-Version 1801)
GPU
Gigabyte GeForce GTX 770 WindForce 3X OC Rev. 2 [PCIEX16/X8_1]
RAM
G.Skill Trident Z RGB (F4-3200C14D-16GTZR) [A2 & B2]
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Western Digital WD Gold 8TB
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be quiet! Pure Power L8 (BN224)
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post #7 of 11 (permalink) Old 06-25-2019, 01:32 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by T.S.O.M. View Post
Yes that's true - 9600K is a budget CPU; I bought it temporarily until the 9900K falls from it's ridiculously high price (yes, it's still a bit overpriced!). And yes, I also have the suspicion, that it's IMC is just crap - but how can I determine, whether the problem lies on the CPU IMC or the memory kit itself?
My DDR4 4400Mhz G.Skill B Die kit will only run at 3866Mhz on my 9900k. It will not run anything higher than 3899Mhz no matter the voltage I provide it. I suggest you try 1 stick at a time to see if any of the sticks can run at DDR4-4000.

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post #8 of 11 (permalink) Old 06-25-2019, 03:10 PM
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I'd say put 1.40/1.45V on your RAM, VCCSA/VCCIO 1.25V, Set all timings on auto except the primary at 17-18-18-36 and 2T command rate. See how far you can boot. This will give a rough Mhz indication..


From what I gather by your post/question, you might ask too much of what is possible so therefor lower your goal. You're way too aggressive in altering parameters. Your VCCIO goes from 1.30V to 1.1 and RAM from 1.4 to 1.65V it's all over the place together with all kinds of settings really.



I'd say you try getting your RAM stable @ 3866Mhz with 2T command and tightest primary timings first without setting the voltages any higher than 1.45 VDIMM, 1.25V IO/SA.


Goodluck.
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post #9 of 11 (permalink) Old 06-25-2019, 03:32 PM
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First off, welcome to the community and thank you for the copious amount of pretesting and information you have already posted here. This makes things much easier to troubleshoot. When it comes to RAM testing, I highly recommend that you make a spreadsheet with all the timings you changed, the relative stability of each revision using a good stress testing tool like HCI Memtest, karhu RAMtest, and/or Google Stressful Application Test, and the average bandwidth/latency scores of some runs of AIDA64 Cache and Memory Bandwidth. This will help keep you organized and allow you to notice stability/latency trends over revision history.

Have you tried setting your RAS to CAS Delay (tRCD) higher then your CAS Latency (tCL) when testing for stability? My 6600K (Z170 OC Formula) rig with DDR4 B-Die sticks practically requires a tRCD 2 clocks higher than tCL when pushed to 3600 or higher. In my case, I got DDR4-4000 stable at 16-18-18-40 CR2 with optimized secondary/tertiary timings; but only when below 35 degrees C. Remember that your DRAM Ref Cycle Time (tRFC) and DRAM Refresh Interval (tREFI) settings are heavily dependent on temperature due to the capacitor nature of memory cells; thus the lower your temperature the better when pushing these settings tight.

In your case of the Gskill employee telling you under 50C is OK, that prolly is at your stock settings of 720 tRFC and 15600 tREFI. I would expect you could probably half the tRFC to 310 and double the tREFI to 31200 easily if you put a fan over the sticks.

As for the other settings, its usually best to leave the other timings alone until you have found a good combination of primary timings and frequency with an acceptable voltage level. I would start with a VDIMM of 1.4/1.45 and VCCIO/SA of 1.15 and see what is stable with HCI Memtest. Remember that your Cache gets hammered in HCI Memtest, so lowering Cache Clock and/or increasing vCore can help with instability that only happens in tests like HCI Memtest.

Looking forward to your results!

Sincerely: shellashock
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post #10 of 11 (permalink) Old 06-27-2019, 11:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote: Originally Posted by That_1_Hz_Extra View Post
I'd say put 1.40/1.45V on your RAM, VCCSA/VCCIO 1.25V, Set all timings on auto except the primary at 17-18-18-36 and 2T command rate. See how far you can boot. This will give a rough Mhz indication..
Goodluck.
I did what you told me. I set memory to DDR4-4000, VDIMM to 1.45V, VCCIO/VCCSA to 1.25/1.25V, "Maximus Tweak" to Mode 1, primary timings to 17-18-18-36 2T, tRFC & tREFI to 810 and 15600, respectively. 1.45V was enough at first - but it appears, that it is unstable and likely higher voltages (1.475 - 1.55V) are necessary to get it stable.

Then I try the same with DDR4-4266, but increase VDIMM to 1.475 -> 5 loops without successful POST.

From then on, I iteratively increase vDIMM 25-50 mV each try. The results:


1.5V VDIMM, 1.25/1.25V VCCIO/VCCSA -> looping without POST.

1.525V VDIMM, 1.25/1.25V VCCIO/VCCSA -> looping without POST.

1.55V VDIMM, 1.25/1.25V VCCIO/VCCSA -> looping without POST.

1.6V VDIMM, 1.25/1.25V VCCIO/VCCSA -> looping without POST.

1.6V VDIMM, 1.25/1.3V VCCIO/VCCSA -> looping without POST.

1.65V VDIMM, 1.25/1.3V VCCIO/VCCSA -> looping without POST.

1.675V VDIMM, 1.25/1.3V VCCIO/VCCSA -> looping without POST.

1.675V VDIMM, 1.3/1.3V VCCIO/VCCSA -> still looping without POST!


Lowering timings for DDR4-4000 from 17-18-18-36 to 16-16-16-32 (and adjusting tRFC accordingly -> down from 810 to 720) initially also runs with just 1.45V (AFAIR... I did these tests yesterday!), but likely needs voltage increase - maybe I'll try one more run and see how long it remains stable before it crashes.

T.S.O.M.

T.S.O.M. - The Spirit of Morpheus
CPU
Intel Core i5-9600K (boxed)
Motherboard
ASUS Maximus X Hero (Z370, BIOS-Version 1801)
GPU
Gigabyte GeForce GTX 770 WindForce 3X OC Rev. 2 [PCIEX16/X8_1]
RAM
G.Skill Trident Z RGB (F4-3200C14D-16GTZR) [A2 & B2]
Hard Drive
Samsung SSD 970 Evo Plus (M.2, PCIe x4, NVMe 1.3) [M.2_1]
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Western Digital WD Gold 8TB
Optical Drive
LG Electronics BH16NS55 retail (black)
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be quiet! Pure Power L8 (BN224)
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Noctua NH-D15 Air Cooler
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Logitech G510s Gaming Keyboard
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