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Why doesn't Intel make an updated Broadwell 5775c?

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post #11 of 25 (permalink) Old 02-10-2020, 10:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Rlurker5, how did you get an LGA version of a crystalwell CPU? I thought there were all BGA?

Also, why couldn't Intel increase the size of the eDRAM as well as using faster DDR4? 256 MiB or 384 MiB of superfast eDRAM would make for an impressive L4 cache right?

Last edited by 8051; 02-10-2020 at 10:57 AM.
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post #12 of 25 (permalink) Old 02-11-2020, 06:16 PM
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If you mean Haswell then a third party made interposers for both LGA and PGA onto which the BGA chip was soldered. Kind of funny if you've read the following article.

https://www.tweaktown.com/news/47346...ics/index.html

Quote:
The overclocking potential of the "C" SKUs was also low, the CPUs didn't overclock well. Intel told us that this was due to the mobile nature of Broadwell; transforming the BGA CPU to an LGA CPU proved to be cumbersome because of the eDRAM implementation and expected overclocking capabilities.
And yet after the Haswell BGA mod the CPU stills overclocks as well as can be expected.
Also funny is how the eDRAM is quoted as a 2GHz part back in 2014 yet run at 1.6GHz on Haswell then increased to 1.8GHz on Broadwell. Wonder if Skylake finally got the standard 2GHz?

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post #13 of 25 (permalink) Old 02-12-2020, 11:44 AM - Thread Starter
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I'd think a > 2Ghz. 256 MiB eDRAM paired w/a Coffee Lake would make for a great gaming platform.
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post #14 of 25 (permalink) Old 02-12-2020, 12:06 PM
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Economics. While eDRAM isn't particularly expensive, transistor for transistor, it's still far from free. eDRAM controller and substrate/interposer complexity adds to that.

It's a choice between more logic or another cache level, and for most workloads, more logic will win.

We'll probably see eDRAM in x86 CPUs again, but I'd expect it to primarily remain an aid to IGPs, even if it has some side benefits as a L4 cache.

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post #15 of 25 (permalink) Old 02-12-2020, 09:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote: Originally Posted by Blameless View Post
Economics. While eDRAM isn't particularly expensive, transistor for transistor, it's still far from free. eDRAM controller and substrate/interposer complexity adds to that.

It's a choice between more logic or another cache level, and for most workloads, more logic will win.

We'll probably see eDRAM in x86 CPUs again, but I'd expect it to primarily remain an aid to IGPs, even if it has some side benefits as a L4 cache.
I really wish I had bought a 5775c system instead of my 5820k system. Maybe AMD will consider the use of eDRAM in one of their CPU's?
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post #16 of 25 (permalink) Old 02-12-2020, 09:34 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by 8051 View Post
I really wish I had bought a 5775c system instead of my 5820k system. Maybe AMD will consider the use of eDRAM in one of their CPU's?
nope, HBM perhaps but not eDRAM.
and there was a rumor that the next APU wouldn't be a monolithic chip but a chiplet with GPU+HBM on package.

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post #17 of 25 (permalink) Old 02-13-2020, 12:12 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by 8051 View Post
Rlurker5, how did you get an LGA version of a crystalwell CPU? I thought there were all BGA?

Also, why couldn't Intel increase the size of the eDRAM as well as using faster DDR4? 256 MiB or 384 MiB of superfast eDRAM would make for an impressive L4 cache right?
Ebay.

It is just like ucode says, a soldered down adapter. I saw a 5950hq for $164 and a 4980hq for $160 and jumped on them. They were leftover ES samples that apparently some clever and industrious chinese folks figured out a way to salvage. They have good silicon but are hampered in understandable ways for "hq" es samples adapted to lga. They are semi locked with multiplier caps, don't seem to like it when I dump more than 1.3v in them and overclocking chipsets forget part of their overclock so you are better off using XTU or throttlestop (this is due to some messed up lack of support). And motherboard compatibility is bad.
Oddly enough, my h81t remembers and applies every detail of the oc for my 4980hq, so it works better than the 3 Z97s I've tried for overclocking these. And I let Windows apply the microcode update for it for stability's sake since I don't think any LGA 1150 boards run the microcode to support it. In my case it is totally stable unless I push 1.3+v on that little h81, which I really shouldn't because vrms and 65w cooler and such.

But there are a lot of chips out there now that are better for gaming. Personally I wouldn't buy any of them because they are getting even better in short order. Ryzen is going to double the L3 accessible to the thread that needs it the most this year and Intel is in the process of leaving the Skylake arch behind. Upgrading my cpu right now would be like replacing my 1080ti with a 2080 super or VII when their replacements are coming out this year. Better to save money for just a bit more.

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post #18 of 25 (permalink) Old 02-13-2020, 03:53 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Blameless View Post
Economics. While eDRAM isn't particularly expensive, transistor for transistor, it's still far from free. eDRAM controller and substrate/interposer complexity adds to that.

It's a choice between more logic or another cache level, and for most workloads, more logic will win.

We'll probably see eDRAM in x86 CPUs again, but I'd expect it to primarily remain an aid to IGPs, even if it has some side benefits as a L4 cache.
Just to clarify that the substrate is the part the die is connected to and an interposer, if used, is an adapter between the substrate and mainboard socket or connection. At least that's always how I've interpreted it.

Does seem it's primary function was to support the integrated graphics and I still think that the eDRAM on subsequent families such as Broadwell and Skylake it is still the same 22nm device although designed to work a little differently for Skylake. Hard to find results for Skylake though, maybe if the processors such as the 6785R weren't locked. I wouldn't be surprised if the non-k overclock left the eDRAM disabled. So costs should be lower by re-purposing the Haswell eDRAM however as DRAM gets faster I suppose there is less advantage of such a device, especially if it is still the old 22nm one. Also some software will benefit more than others, Winrar shows this well. An example with an i7-4980HQ running the same clocks except for eDRAM, and RAM timings. 125MHz strap used and DRAM set to 8-11-11-29-102-2 at 1113MHz (2226MT/s)

So around 30% increase with default eDRAM and another 13% or so for overclocking the eDRAM by 33%. Would have expected nearer 10% rather than 13% but those are the results.


Quote: Originally Posted by 8051 View Post
I really wish I had bought a 5775c system instead of my 5820k system.
Me too, I waited for launch day for the 5775C then waited some more and some more again. It never sold here, it was like it had never existed.

You mention X99 and someone else mentioned about quad channel bandwidth. I too have an X99 and bandwidth only seems to be realized when running multiple threads. Single thread bandwidth is shocking, around 10GB/s for 2133MT/s quad channel. This can be seen with maxxmem2 3.0 http://maxxpi2.de/pages/results/top-...gs---ddr-3.php although cache has an effect on reads but write speed would be near the mark. Because of the cache effect you might find 5775C's can take top places for DDR3 because of the eDRAM, well until the author deletes them.

Quote: Originally Posted by rluker5 View Post
Ebay.
I saw a 5950hq for $164 and a 4980hq for $160 and jumped on them. They were leftover ES samples that apparently...
When was that? I bought my i7-4980HQ end of 2018 when they were selling around the $100 mark and it's a production CPU although it might well be secondhand. It can be run fully unlocked via not running microcode patching until later on but I have microcode 0x17 modded into the BIOS, it's the same length as one of the unneeded patches so makes it an easier replacement. The 1.3V problem sounds like the FIVR over voltage protection isn't being disabled. Disabling OVP for vcore/vcache should see the limit at 1.925V which above that sets voltage back to default VID, well at least it does that on a couple of cheapo Haswell desktop CPU's I tried. Still, should be able to do a lot with 1.3V so not a huge loss.


Last edited by ucode; 02-14-2020 at 01:58 AM.
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post #19 of 25 (permalink) Old 02-13-2020, 06:11 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by ucode View Post
When was that? I bought my i7-4980HQ end of 2018 when they were selling around the $100 mark and it's a production CPU although it might well be secondhand. It can be run fully unlocked via not running microcode patching until later on but I have microcode 0x17 modded into the BIOS, it's the same length as one of the unneeded patches so makes it an easier replacement. The 1.3V problem sounds like the FIVR over voltage protection isn't being disabled. Disabling OVP for vcore/vcache should see the at 1.925V which above that sets voltage back to default VID, well at least it does that on a couple of cheapo Haswell desktop CPU's I tried. Still, should be able to do a lot with 1.3V so not a huge loss.
I found them just a little after Linus released that video about the adapted cpu he picked up. Maybe he caused a spike in demand in that tiny market. I'm still happy with the price I paid for the entertainment I've gotten out of them. But that $100 is quite the deal. And my 4980hq is capped at 4.6,4.5,4.4,4.4 so it isn't onerous or anything.
I haven't heard of someone swapping out microcodes for different cpus before. Is there any way a Broadwell microcode switch would work on an 8 series board, or would some cpu list check stop that? I've only gone as far as ubu in swapping them btw.

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post #20 of 25 (permalink) Old 02-13-2020, 02:16 PM - Thread Starter
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What about petitioning Intel to make an updated eDRAM CPU like the 5775c? There seem to be a lot of 5775c fans out there.

Did the eDRAM on the xbox 360 make much of a difference? I remember the one cross platform game I saw played on the xbox 360 (Call of Duty Modern Warfare 3) had me laughing at the way the enemies would magically spawn right in front of my eyes and the lousy graphics of the game (even on the PC). I know some Fallout 3 fans said the reason for all of Fallout 3's bugs and lousy graphics were because it was developed for the 360.
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