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post #1101 of 4249 (permalink) Old 11-19-2017, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by AlphaC View Post

@ HKPolice,
Midrange boards should top out at around 90-100 degrees VRM with AVX at 1.35V or so (not small FFTs) with case cooling , peak power output roughly 250W at the wall. AIO Coolers or high end air with 250-300W+ peak TDP potential are required to extract ~200-220W continuous out of CPU because you need to account for thermal resistance of thermal paste + liquid metal (Coffee Lake is not a soldered CPU).

https://overclock3d.net/reviews/cpu_mainboard/gigabyte_z370_aorus_ultra_gaming_review/14 --- OCCT AVX , RM1000i ~ 92% efficient
http://playwares.com/pcreview/55679055# --- Prime95 AVX large FFT

Both the ROG Hero and Gaming 7 have been shown running 5GHz 1.4V (Aviutl+x264) with no extra cooling at 90-100 degrees over on livedoor (blog.livedoor.jp/wisteriear/ ).
http://blog.livedoor.jp/wisteriear/archives/1068298475.html
http://blog.livedoor.jp/wisteriear/archives/1068332298.html

What you're seeing is largely a VRM heatsink limitation. That's why to fully utilize the potential of Gaming 7 , ROG Apex/Code/Hero, Taichi, Godlike , etc you would need to cool the VRM with a monoblock or better surface area VRM heatsink than the RGB monstrosity on the Gaming 7.
At least one user reported VRM temperature drops on the Gaming 7 from switching thermal pads and torquing down the VRM heatsink more.

With boards such as GBT Gaming 5 (4.1 and 5.3 °C/W thermal resistance junction to case), MSI's M5 (3.8 and 5.3 °C/W thermal resistance mosfet junction to case), Asus Z370-A Onsemi variant (4.1 and 4.9 °C/W junction to case), Asus E/F/G Strix boards (worse for monoblock purposes due to 25A package limit ; 4°C/W thermal resistance junction to case) getting a monoblock won't increase your potential very much since you're mosfet package limited to an extent. You're looking at about 20-30A maximum per phase without adjusting RDS(on) for voltage and temperature (+20-30% difference at between 80 to 100°C). The STRIX E/F/G just happen to have lower max current for the low side fet (25A package limit).

If you're thinking of watercooling a midrange board (not really worthwhile IMO), a GBT Gaming 5 is a far better bet. Firstly, all components for doubling/dual driver are on the front of the board (under the VRM heatsink area). Secondly, it has been shown to run cooler even without watercooling. Thirdly, the mosfets can handle much more current if kept cool (it's the same power design as on Z270X UD5) to the tune of 45A at 25°C mosfet case temperature for the high side 4C10N and 69A for the low side 4c06N.

The MSI M5 and Pro Carbon are decent but you must keep in mind that the dual drivers (up1962) are on the back of the board. The 4C029 has a similar 46A at 25°C mosfet case temp so there's no major advantage in that respect.

The moment there is a VRM block for the Asrock Z370 K6 or Extreme4 , those would be even better than the GBT Gaming 5. The Fairchild variant (dual channel mosfet) can handle 56A at 25°C on the high side channel and 84A at 25°C on the low side. The Sinopower variant can handle 73A at 25°C for the high side channel and 186A for the low side channel. The main reason why you would prefer the Fairchild variant is that it has faster switching times. With the Asrock Z370 K6/ Extreme4 you're more limited by the CPU power connector than the board.

edit: I did the math with the Fairchild and Sinopower on 5 phases in dual driver mode vs the 10 discrete drivers on the Taichi, you'd still come out ahead of a ONsemi/Vishay 8 phase solution using the mosfets on the GBT Gaming 5 / MSI M5 even if they were interleaved. It is partially due to the approximately 2x lower RDS(on) of the low side channel but also due to lower switch times on the high side channel. Of course in reality the STRIX E/F/G, GBT Gaming 5, MSI M5 may not be interleaved.
A stock i7-8700k draws about 100W in Handbrake with x265 (AVX2) and about 120-130W hammering it in Prime95 with AVX. The i7-8700 is likely going to avoid turboing as high as the i7-8700k for AVX loads.
(refer to ATX12VV power draw http://www.hardware.fr/articles/970-3/overclocking-pratique.html)

This thread mainly applies to overclocked, delidded CPUs on AVX or continuous loads with AVX. For your use case, an Asus TUF / Z370-P, Asrock Killer SLI, MSI Tomahawk & lower, or Asrock Pro4 are still not great ideas due to cut down USB gen 2 , features (such as wifi, M.2 slots), and/or audio. The Gigabyte Gaming 3 , K3 , XP SLI & HD3P then become stronger contenders due to Dual BIOS but the MSI SLI PLUS is usually cheaper. The STRIX-H is still terrible since it costs quite a bit for what it is.

If you buy a cheaper board and use it with AVX on stock CPU, the sustained all core turbo will not hit power limits unless LLC is at ridiculous levels.
I would limit your expectations for an ITX board.

For Fatal1ty ITX , you could probably use the Koolance VRM blocks.
https://www.amazon.com/Koolance-MVR-100-Water-Block-Motherboard/dp/B004YF8CCA/
https://www.amazon.com/Koolance-MVR-40-Water-Block-Motherboard/dp/B004YF8NWO , http://www.performance-pcs.com/koolance-mvr-40-mb-vreg-no-nozzles.html

Or trim to fit https://modmymods.com/watercool-heatkiller-microsw-x-40-diy.html , http://www.aquatuning.us/water-cooling/gpu-water-blocks/gpu-vrm-cooler/14785/watercool-heatkiller-microsw-x-40-diy , http://www.performance-pcs.com/watercool-heatkiller-microsw-x-60-diy.html , https://modmymods.com/watercool-heatkiller-sw-x-60-diy-lt.html

I personally wouldn't buy the STRIX-I because even if you put it under water you're limited to about 14.5-20A per 4C86N mosfet (package limit is 20A) x 6 phases means safety is around 150W tops. The Fatal1ty ITX is far more capable due to the 5 phase power design using 60A Intersil smart powerstages along with the heatpiped heatsink.

The way I see it , for monoblocks and VRM blocks you should only buy a board with mosfets that have a higher package current limit because otherwise you're still limited by the mosfets innate package limits.

If you're buying vrm waterblocks for the fatility itx, you would still need a chipset waterblock because theyre connected by a heatpipe on the mobo. Depending on the case, you would become limited by the psu as the largest sfx psu is 650W and the most recommended is 600W. SFX-L is a different story.
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post #1102 of 4249 (permalink) Old 11-19-2017, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neville0 View Post

If you're buying vrm waterblocks for the fatility itx, you would still need a chipset waterblock because theyre connected by a heatpipe on the mobo. Depending on the case, you would become limited by the psu as the largest sfx psu is 650W and the most recommended is 600W. SFX-L is a different story.

This is true.

The chipset heatsink situation is much more easily rectified, the official TDP is 6W. (https://ark.intel.com/products/125903/Intel-Z370-Chipset)

Package is 23mm x 24mm , scaling images of the chipset PCB suggest around this size as well. The chip itself appears to be around 8x10mm.

There are many 25x25mm heatsink solutions that can be attached with thermal tape.

If you're willing to allow for overhang there's the Enzotech solution seen here http://www.performance-pcs.com/enzotech-slf-30-30mm-forged-low-profile-copper-heatsink.html
By scaling the mosfet package (5x5mm) I estimate the diagonal hole center to center distance to be around 48mm. The range is 47.5-53.5mm on this enzotech heatsink.
CU1100 Copper (Click to show)


An aluminum chipset heatsink is a worse idea as a replacement. You would need roughly 40mm x40mm to run passively. 6063 aluminum (Click to show)

To maintain a temperature of around 50°- 60°C you're looking at about 5°C/W thermal resistance. That's satisfied by an aluminum heatsink of 40mm square dimension with about 10-15mm thickness.

26.60mm square , 11.6mm height pin fin with 200LFM airflow is about 5.3°C/W https://www.digikey.com/catalog/en/partgroup/apr-series/1250

4.08 °C/W 29mm square footprint, 12.7mm height (aluminum 6063 T5) : https://www.mouser.com/search/ProductDetail.aspx?R=0virtualkey0virtualkeyWAVE-29-127#spec Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

clip on heatsinks https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Wakefield-Vette/903-23-2-18-2-B-0/ Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sancus View Post

Is the Asus Z370-G mATX adequate for a 5.2ghz 8700K @ 1.425V? Is the Asrock Fatal1ty ITX/ac any better? Rather not wait indefinitely for the EVGA Z370 Micro unless it's absolutely necessary.
Z370-G mATX is supposedly the same VRM as the STRIX-E/F. (That is limited to 25A per low side mosfet)

The Fatal1ty ITX/ac should be just as capable if not more capable provided you cool the Fatal1ty ITX's VRM heatsink. The 60A Intersil Smart Powerstages are definitely able to put out over 40A and with higher efficiency (over 92%). Thermal protection is built in as well.

Just be aware that you really should use an AVX offset with an ITX PCB or a VRM like the STRIX's.

see https://www.hardwareluxx.de/community/f139/intel-coffee-lake-s-sockel-1151-oc-ergebnis-thread-kein-quatschthread-1178256.html#post25869477
Quote:
8700K|AVX|5000MHz|1.232V|4500MHz|1800MHz|ASRock Fatal1ty Z370 Gaming-ITX/ac|EK AIO|geköpft|L731C402|Boxed|the_patchelor
(power draw from CPU = 167W)

I've seen people reportedly trigger thermal shutdown on STRIX-E/F at 200W, but the board should be capable of more. It is likely a VRM cooling issue or a current limit in BIOS.

edit: see this newer review of STRIX-E from hardwareluxx, it supposedly pulled 192W power consumption but it wasn't specified if it was from the wall https://www.hardwareluxx.de/index.php/artikel/hardware/mainboards/44666-asus-rog-strix-z370-e-gaming-im-test-das-strix-flaggschiff-fuer-coffee-lake-s.html?start=5

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post #1103 of 4249 (permalink) Old 11-19-2017, 06:08 PM
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Is the Asus Z370-G mATX adequate for a 5.2ghz 8700K @ 1.425V? Is the Asrock Fatal1ty ITX/ac any better? Rather not wait indefinitely for the EVGA Z370 Micro unless it's absolutely necessary.
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post #1104 of 4249 (permalink) Old 11-20-2017, 06:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaC View Post

I would limit your expectations for an ITX board.

For Fatal1ty ITX , you could probably use the Koolance VRM blocks.
https://www.amazon.com/Koolance-MVR-100-Water-Block-Motherboard/dp/B004YF8CCA/
https://www.amazon.com/Koolance-MVR-40-Water-Block-Motherboard/dp/B004YF8NWO , http://www.performance-pcs.com/koolance-mvr-40-mb-vreg-no-nozzles.html

Or trim to fit https://modmymods.com/watercool-heatkiller-microsw-x-40-diy.html , http://www.aquatuning.us/water-cooling/gpu-water-blocks/gpu-vrm-cooler/14785/watercool-heatkiller-microsw-x-40-diy , http://www.performance-pcs.com/watercool-heatkiller-microsw-x-60-diy.html , https://modmymods.com/watercool-heatkiller-sw-x-60-diy-lt.html

I personally wouldn't buy the STRIX-I because even if you put it under water you're limited to about 14.5-20A per 4C86N mosfet (package limit is 20A) x 6 phases means safety is around 150W tops. The Fatal1ty ITX is far more capable due to the 5 phase power design using 60A Intersil smart powerstages along with the heatpiped heatsink.

The way I see it , for monoblocks and VRM blocks you should only buy a board with mosfets that have a higher package current limit because otherwise you're still limited by the mosfets innate package limits.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neville0 View Post

If you're buying vrm waterblocks for the fatility itx, you would still need a chipset waterblock because theyre connected by a heatpipe on the mobo. Depending on the case, you would become limited by the psu as the largest sfx psu is 650W and the most recommended is 600W. SFX-L is a different story.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaC View Post

This is true.

The chipset heatsink situation is much more easily rectified, the official TDP is 6W. (https://ark.intel.com/products/125903/Intel-Z370-Chipset)

Package is 23mm x 24mm , scaling images of the chipset PCB suggest around this size as well. The chip itself appears to be around 8x10mm.

There are many 25x25mm heatsink solutions that can be attached with thermal tape.

To maintain a temperature of around 50°- 60°C you're looking at about 5°C/W thermal resistance. That's satisfied by an aluminum heatsink of 40mm square dimension with about 10-15mm thickness.

26.60mm square , 11.6mm height pin fin with 200LFM airflow is about 5.3°C/W https://www.digikey.com/catalog/en/partgroup/apr-series/1250

4.08 °C/W 29mm square footprint, 12.7mm height (aluminum 6063 T5) : https://www.mouser.com/search/ProductDetail.aspx?R=0virtualkey0virtualkeyWAVE-29-127#spec

Thank you for the explanation and suggestions on the heatsinks. I will get the Asrock Fatal1ty itx over the asus strix. Aesthetics is also of importance to me since I am going to be using a tempered glass case. I dont want to introduce nickel colours into the build since mine is going to be clear blocks with crimson red liquid and gold fittings. I instead identified clear water blocks for both the vrm and the chipset to make the looks more uniform. Probably have to powder coat the screws on these red or golden yellow.
60 mm mosfet block
Chipset Block

I am not sure how cleanly I can remove the stock heatsinks and replace with waterblocks. Worst case scenario I use the asrock heatsinks as is. I would still be better off than going with the z370i strix + ek monoblock right?

As for psu, yes I will be using a sfx: a repurposed silverstone sfx-l 500w. This pc is not for gaming and it will only have a strix gtx1050ti. I think 500w is more than enough for just the oced 8700k.
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post #1105 of 4249 (permalink) Old 11-20-2017, 01:48 PM
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Hey guys,

I have unpacked gaming 7 waiting for 8700k to arrive hopefully this week ... I just noticed today this new egg review about the motherboard, should I be concerned? I thought gaming 7 has one of the best VRMs around (including cooling)? is the user perhaps have faulty mobo? Is it the case of vrm heatsink too lose?
Quote:
Terrible VRM Cooling 11/19/2017 11:04:18 AM

Pros: -Has all the features you expect from a higher-end board
-Flashy lights, if you care about that (I don't)

Cons: -VRM heatsink design is almost entirely cosmetic and the VRMs overheat as a consequence.
-UEFI interface is a little ugly and has odd choices for some items (LLC for example; the options are "Auto - Standard - Low - Medium - High - Turbo - Extreme")

Other Thoughts: While running Prime95 Small FFT test, the VRM temperature shot up above 120C in under a minute. This is at a relatively tame 5.1GHz overclock at 1.35 volts. The heatsinks are tight to the board and I now have a fan ducted to blow directly at the VRMs. The temperatures still hit 115C which is the point what which the VRMs throttle. TechReport said Gigabyte told them 135C, but it for sure 100% is 115C. I was watching intel XTU and it indicated throttling the second the VRM temperature hit 115C. The VRM heatsink design is a huge letdown and I am very disappointed. Some others are saying they don't have this problem, so maybe it's just my board. I really don't want to have to deal with the RMA process, especially if I'm going to have to pay any shipping for something that is not my mistake.

The fact is a reviewer (TechReport) had this problem, they contacted Gigabyte about it, Gigabyte provided them incorrect information at the temperatures VRM throttle, and as a consequence TechReport gave this board their "Recommended Award". I don't know if I'd get a Gigabyte board in the future.

Any comments will be much appreciated.
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post #1106 of 4249 (permalink) Old 11-20-2017, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by amd7674 View Post

Hey guys,

I have unpacked gaming 7 waiting for 8700k to arrive hopefully this week ... I just noticed today this new egg review about the motherboard, should I be concerned? I thought gaming 7 has one of the best VRMs around (including cooling)? is the user perhaps have faulty mobo? Is it the case of vrm heatsink too lose?
Any comments will be much appreciated.

I saw that too, though people that have tightened the heat sink down a little bit resolved the issue.

Is it me or does that thing feel heavy?
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post #1107 of 4249 (permalink) Old 11-20-2017, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by amd7674 View Post

Hey guys,

I have unpacked gaming 7 waiting for 8700k to arrive hopefully this week ... I just noticed today this new egg review about the motherboard, should I be concerned? I thought gaming 7 has one of the best VRMs around (including cooling)? is the user perhaps have faulty mobo? Is it the case of vrm heatsink too lose?
Any comments will be much appreciated.

I wouldn't worry about it. It doesn't seem like a common issue(besides the vrm heatsink tightening) and probably that person got a "bad" board unfortunately.


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post #1108 of 4249 (permalink) Old 11-20-2017, 02:26 PM
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I saw that too, though people that have tightened the heat sink down a little bit resolved the issue.

Is it me or does that thing feel heavy?
Mobo? I haven't opened yet... Lol. Things are just piling up. Winter tires, both kids in soccer and hockey and my dear wife with a long list of chores. Will I even have time to put this rug together. My older son is so happy as he will be getting [email protected] with old gtx670. This grandpa system will run circles around his i5 laptop (used as desktop).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koniakki View Post

I wouldn't worry about it. It doesn't seem like a common issue(besides the vrm heatsink tightening) and probably that person got a "bad" board unfortunately.

I hope so that's the case ?
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post #1109 of 4249 (permalink) Old 11-20-2017, 02:53 PM
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I am about to order the Aorus gaming 7, but the only thing that concerns me it the vrm temp issue. Do you think i should go on and get it or go with the hero X and about 20e more and have some piece of mind?

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post #1110 of 4249 (permalink) Old 11-20-2017, 02:56 PM
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Thank you for the explanation and suggestions on the heatsinks. I will get the Asrock Fatal1ty itx over the asus strix. Aesthetics is also of importance to me since I am going to be using a tempered glass case. I dont want to introduce nickel colours into the build since mine is going to be clear blocks with crimson red liquid and gold fittings. I instead identified clear water blocks for both the vrm and the chipset to make the looks more uniform. Probably have to powder coat the screws on these red or golden yellow.
60 mm mosfet block
Chipset Block

I am not sure how cleanly I can remove the stock heatsinks and replace with waterblocks. Worst case scenario I use the asrock heatsinks as is. I would still be better off than going with the z370i strix + ek monoblock right?

As for psu, yes I will be using a sfx: a repurposed silverstone sfx-l 500w. This pc is not for gaming and it will only have a strix gtx1050ti. I think 500w is more than enough for just the oced 8700k.

You won't regret that ASRock board, one thing ASRock do well is build ITX boards for some reason.
I love my Z370 Fatal1ty ITX.
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